The UK election 2010

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Who will you vote for in 2010?

Labour
7
20%
Conservative
17
49%
Lib-Dems
6
17%
UK-IP
0
No votes
BNP
2
6%
Greens
2
6%
Others
1
3%
 
Total votes : 35

Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:58 am

It doesn't sound right does it...

No, I think that's probably a bit racist. :P
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby queenfan23 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:59 am

The only reason people would want to vote Labour is because things are only currently "bad". People are just too scared to vote for someone else, because we've spent so long under the Labour rule it's become somewhat comfortable and it could still be made worse. Voting someone else is a real unknown. I think it's just a case of looking away and wincing as you put an X next to a party other than Labour on your ballot sheet.

Belle Leisha wrote:
queenfan23 wrote:I'd vote Tory all the way, all of the three major parties are just going to fuck us over in the next 7 years and who wants the Lib Dems in power? We haven't had a non-Tory or non-Labour Prime Minister since David Lloyd George in 1916.


Yes which is a very good argument for not voting Tories. We still haven't forgiven the Lib Dems for David Lloyd George just shy of a century ago, even though the party has completely changed, yet we're forgiving the Tories for Thatcher in less than twenty years, with no discernable change to the party? I wouldn't vote for them because I want to keep the NHS and for working class people to still be able to afford to go to University...an irriational connection maybe, but then discussion of cutting spending in the public sector really on encourages it.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:19 am

I wouldn't vote Conservative if my life depended on it, honestly. Unless they turned into a completely different party, obviously. I'm a socialist to the bone and I have no interest in a party who serve a minority. Sod that. :P

Anyway I'm not voting Labour, I'll be wincing as I vote for Lib Dems and wonder if the Tories do get in, did I contribute to the Rise of Evil by not voting Labour. ;)
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Ace » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:42 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Yet we're forgiving the Tories for Thatcher in less than twenty years, with no discernable change to the party?


What is it that we have to forgive Thatcher for?

If you think Thatcher cut government spending then you'll be pretty pissed off with all three parties this time around as they have all admitted that the cuts they will have to introduce will be more severe than those introduced by Mrs Thatchers government.

We could always carry on using the UK's credit card until we're really broke I suppose.

Isn't it time that people started to realise that Thatcher created an economy of wealth and prudence, exactly what we now need.

I always think of the Torys and Labour as like a married couple. The man (Labour) takes control of the finances. Everything is great. They have a lovely house, a nice holiday each year. There's a new car on the drive, they eat out once a week at a nice restuarant. There clothes are all nice and new and they feel pretty well off.

However, its all done on debt and the credit cards are maxed out, the overdraft is at its limit. They can't get any more credit and their credit rating is shot to pieces. The wife (Tories) takes over the finances for the couple. She stops the needless spending, only has a cheap holiday. No new furniture and the car will have to do for a while. Clothes are bought from ASDA. No meals out except on special occassions. After a few years she's paid off the debt, all credit card balances are under control and the overdraft has gone. Their credit rating is back to being good again.

But life's been tough and hubby (Labour) is starting to get pissed off so he takes back the finances. New clothes, holidays, extention to the house, new car and they are back to being horrendously in debt again. The cycle goes on.

When is life better? When hubby is in control or when the wife runs the finances?

You can only have what you can pay for. Otherwise there comes the day when it has to be paid back. Why can't we have a government that doesn't spend tomorrows income today. I'd rather have reduced services that were affordable as opposed to a government that wants to spend our income in advance of us earning it.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Ace » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:58 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
I'm a socialist to the bone and I have no interest in a party who serve a minority. Sod that.



We haven't had a Consevative government for 13 years so I doubt you have first hand experience of what the Torys did. You certainly cant imagine the mess they picked up at the end of the 70's.

And why do we persist with this view that the Tories look after only a minority. They don't. No party looks after the minority. All parties have some good policies and some we don't like. It will depend on your view point.

The election campaign is total flannel. None of the three main parties have told us what they will do after the election because if they did, no one would vote for them. You have to look at previous experiences to get the truth. And my previous experiences tell me that, as usual, when the country is in the shit, Labour doesn't have the answers.

We've all had a pretty good time over the last few years. Lots of public spending. Lots of it wasted but lots of it not. Now we have to pay it back. The question is, who historically has done this the best?

Can we have a government that will put an end to the culture of people being better off not working. A culture that creates 98% of new jobs for immigrant workers. A culture of debt repayment that is more than we spend educating our children. A culture where welfare handouts are supporting large swaithes of the population.

Can we start to have a culture where people are paid fair wages (yes, I agree with the minimum wage, it should be higher) and don't rely on the state for continual top ups.

Can we stop creating needless quangoes. Can we start to undertstand that the private sector creates the wealth and the public sector distributes it, not the other way around.

I dont want to cut spending on crucial areas like health and education (although there is a huge amount of waste in these areas, waste that wouldn't be acceptable in the private sector) but I dont want to be paying interest on debt we have incured through reckless spending either. That interest cuts the amount of spending we have for tomorrow's services.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over who wins this election. We live in a democracy afterall so we all decide. All three parties know the truth. Balance your budget. Its the only way you can live.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:45 pm

The economy is not the only thing a Government are responsible for, granted in a capitalist world it isn't far off, but whenever you talk about the Conservatives it's all from the point of view of what the figures looked like at the time and that's just not my priority. Yes I realise I wasn't around in the Thatcher years but do I really need to have been? How many people here were around for Nazi Germany...how many that weren't still have an opinion on it. Surely, it completely depends on what you think makes a better Government. I actually think Thatcher completely believed she was doing the best thing for the country and maybe she was, for the country, not for the people. When the working class are essentially fighting against the Government, it's not surprising people somewhat turned against her!

A lot of people agree with you, more has gone wrong in the last thirteen years than had done for a long time, and obviously I don't remember much of any Government before this one. But everything about Thatcherism, is against everything I think is a good way to run a country. They do serve a minority, they serve the private sector, accessible only by the wealthy and they will always be in the minority. While I realize kantian ethics aren't always applicable, in this case they are, if you push that to it's maxim you would lose the major good things about this country. The election is total rubbish, the major three parties are interested in winning it rather than what they're going to do when/if they do win and none of them have a magic fix for the country. I will avoid a party that automatically make me think the NHS and education are in danger, which obviously, a party emphasing the private sector do.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Ace » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:11 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:The economy is not the only thing a Government are responsible for, granted in a capitalist world it isn't far off, but whenever you talk about the Conservatives it's all from the point of view of what the figures looked like at the time and that's just not my priority. Yes I realise I wasn't around in the Thatcher years but do I really need to have been? How many people here were around for Nazi Germany...how many that weren't still have an opinion on it. Surely, it completely depends on what you think makes a better Government. I actually think Thatcher completely believed she was doing the best thing for the country and maybe she was, for the country, not for the people. When the working class are essentially fighting against the Government, it's not surprising people somewhat turned against her!

A lot of people agree with you, more has gone wrong in the last thirteen years than had done for a long time, and obviously I don't remember much of any Government before this one. But everything about Thatcherism, is against everything I think is a good way to run a country. They do serve a minority, they serve the private sector, accessible only by the wealthy and they will always be in the minority. While I realize kantian ethics aren't always applicable, in this case they are, if you push that to it's maxim you would lose the major good things about this country. The election is total rubbish, the major three parties are interested in winning it rather than what they're going to do when/if they do win and none of them have a magic fix for the country. I will avoid a party that automatically make me think the NHS and education are in danger, which obviously, a party emphasing the private sector do.


What do you mean by working class? I'm working class, as are the majority of the country. Anyone who has to work for a living is working class. So, in particular, what is it you so dislike about Thatcherism?

Most societies (and in particular, the societies advocated by our three major parties) want to ensure that public services meet the requirments of the society. I may disagree with some of the policies of all three parties but I don't doubt that they all wish to ensure that society prospers.

The economy is pretty much the crux of government. It is the trunk that supports the tree. Without a strong economy the rest becomes just a wish list of things to do if only the cash allowed.

There seems to be an assumption that we can have a strong public sector without a strong private sector. I suppose that depends on your definition of a public / private sector role. Either way, the revenue has to be earned before you can spend it and as such prioritisation of resources is the key.

As the wealth generated grows, so too can the service provision. All I keep hearing about Thatcherism is that she didn't spend the right level of money on health and education. The reality is that we didn't have, at that time, the money to spend and we had a large deficit. In order to ensure that this deficit did not grow and jeopardise future generations spending had to be controlled. Our country's debt in 1997 had been reduced to a historic low and this formed the back drop of prosperity for the next few years. But we spent too heavily during this period and now we have to do the same cut backs again.

You seem to advocate that income / expenditure is not an important element in the health of the country. How do you think we should support our over expanded public sector and should we just carry the debt that we already have for future generations to pay back whilst we enjoy the short-term benefits?

You've stated above that the figures at that time were not your priority. What is your priority? Can you give some specifics?
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby fairydandy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:20 pm

Ace wrote:What do you mean by working class? I'm working class, as are the majority of the country. Anyone who has to work for a living is working class.


I disagree with this. Is your Doctor working class or middle class? I would argue that he's middle class.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:42 pm

You could be generally less aware of my utterly vacuous political knowledge you know. :P

Alright let's see...

Ace wrote:
What do you mean by working class? I'm working class, as are the majority of the country. Anyone who has to work for a living is working class. So, in particular, what is it you so dislike about Thatcherism?


No no no everyone who has to work for a living is not working class, middle class people also have to work for a living. Yeah like fd says, doctors, lawyers, managers...ect can actually be either, depending on whether they're the first generation of working or middle class people in that or another similar profession. You can't actually change you're class in your own lifetime, you can change your children's. There's generally some confusion over class. So say you said you're working class, well if you have a middle class job and then have children, they could be middle class, but your class will stay the same while your socio-economic status changes...as far as all sociology textbooks explain anyway. :lol:

But you raise a good point, the class system is now pretty redundant, thank God, we're more divided by socio-economic status,e.g. University fees are out of the reach of some even with the current available loans, meaning if you're poor you don't get an education. Thatcher wanted less state intervention, that doesn't lend itself well to more universally available education, or things like free health service. Both she and the conservatives in general are just too right wing which doesn't work for me, that's what I dislike about it. It's nationalist and a little bit survival of the fittest which I'm sure did wonders for the country's economy but it did leave 3.6 million people unemployed, over a million more people unemployed in the eighties than now, despite the massive population increase!

Most societies (and in particular, the societies advocated by our three major parties) want to ensure that public services meet the requirments of the society. I may disagree with some of the policies of all three parties but I don't doubt that they all wish to ensure that society prospers.

The economy is pretty much the crux of government. It is the trunk that supports the tree. Without a strong economy the rest becomes just a wish list of things to do if only the cash allowed.

....

You seem to advocate that income / expenditure is not an important element in the health of the country. How do you think we should support our over expanded public sector and should we just carry the debt that we already have for future generations to pay back whilst we enjoy the short-term benefits?

You've stated above that the figures at that time were not your priority. What is your priority? Can you give some specifics?


I agree and that is unavoidable, but there are other aspects not independent of it, but which should, in my opinion, be considered a priority. Well for example David Cameron currently proposes to give married couples £150 yearly tax break, which will cost 5.6 million a year...Not a priority! You have to have money to spent it, I don't disagree with that, which I think is exactly why things like health and education are so important, some things shouldn't come down to wealth and they should not, therefore they should be the Government's major priority, no giving massive bonuses to bankers, tax breaks to married couples, hilariously expensive olympics...etc. I'm not sure any of the major three parties follow that, but history does tell us that yes, when things aren't going well health and education will suffer first with the conservatives and unemployment will reach epic proportions.

I have this almost certainly completely unfair, skin crawly feeling of rich pompous prats being the major Conservative voting aim...they don't really help that by wanting to bring back fox hunting...I mean if you don't care at all about animals, you'd still have to wonder what kind of idiotic shambles of a party thinks that's a priority right now.



(Edit: No offence to anyone voting Conservative, it is the party, not actually the voters I think that about. ;) )
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby queenb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:09 pm

Funny how history always seems to repeat itself - Labour making an almighty mess and the tories left to pick up the pieces and put the country rosy again. Only for Labour to ruin it all over again...
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Martin1988 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:42 pm

Not election related not but worth putting anywhere else.

Enjoy the TfL tube website...
http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/

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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Ace » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:25 am

Belle Leisha wrote:. It's nationalist and a little bit survival of the fittest which I'm sure did wonders for the country's economy but it did leave 3.6 million people unemployed, over a million more people unemployed in the eighties than now, despite the massive population increase!

I agree and that is unavoidable, but there are other aspects not independent of it, but which should, in my opinion, be considered a priority. Well for example David Cameron currently proposes to give married couples £150 yearly tax break, which will cost 5.6 million a year...Not a priority! You have to have money to spent it, I don't disagree with that, which I think is exactly why things like health and education are so important, some things shouldn't come down to wealth and they should not, therefore they should be the Government's major priority, no giving massive bonuses to bankers, tax breaks to married couples, hilariously expensive olympics...etc. I'm not sure any of the major three parties follow that, but history does tell us that yes, when things aren't going well health and education will suffer first with the conservatives and unemployment will reach epic proportions.

I have this almost certainly completely unfair, skin crawly feeling of rich pompous prats being the major Conservative voting aim...they don't really help that by wanting to bring back fox hunting...I mean if you don't care at all about animals, you'd still have to wonder what kind of idiotic shambles of a party thinks that's a priority right now.

(Edit: No offence to anyone voting Conservative, it is the party, not actually the voters I think that about. ;) )


With regards to your point on the unemployed, don't get too distracted by the figures you have quoted. A large number of the unemployed are still unemployed but claiming benefits in different ways (usually disability benefit)

With regards to university places, I'm affraid I disagree with you. Too many people are going to university at the moment and coming out with a degree that will not give them anymore earning potential than they had previously although they'll be £20k further in debt. This is starting to become apparent now and the media is starting to pick up on this.

All we have done is take jobs that people used to be more than capable of doing with GCSEs and A'levels and now asking for a degree instead. Those people that need degrees from a vocational view point are still getting them but many people are being sold an ideal that just isn't in reality true. This is also another way we are keeping people off the unemployment register. By keeping young people in education longer they are not looking for jobs and hence not registering as unemployed.

You also make reference to the government giving large bonuses to bankers. Other than Lloyds TSB and RBS the government have no say in bankers bonuses. In fact these bonuses are happening under a Labour watch (Labour has been in power now for 13 years).

The gap between high and low paid has increased under the last Labour government despite the fact that the gap had been previously reducing since the 1900's.

I'm all in favour of a fairer Britain but the last 13 years haven't suggested that Labour are the people to do it. Call me callous but I do think that huge amounts of money are wasted in keeping people on benefits. I've no objection to those in genuine need having good benefits but object to the large numbers of people who wont work having their standards of living increase (under any government) at the expense of those who do work.

We have also created a growing differential between private and public sector pensions. Gold plated pensions in the public sector have now disappeared thanks to the burdon placed on pensions by the Labour government taxing pension dividends. This took £100b out of private pension funds and forced companies to review their pension policies. This same review has been very slow in happening in the public sector. Is it coincidence that the pension pot deficits in the UK are now running at about £100b?

The Tories tax give away for married couples is a mistake. I agree with the theory but in practice we cant afford the tax break and its negligable anyway.

In summary, I feel that the "working man or woman" (I avoid the term working class as you seem to have something against people who earn higher wages) should be rewarded for working and for contributing to society. I dont believe in a class war. Wage differential will always exist, we're not communists afterall. I do disagree strongly with massive pay awards for fat cats who frankly belong to no political party and appear immune to the effects of fiscal policy. Don't forget, most of these fat cats supported Labour during the last 13 years. Its only now that we see them turning against labour because they understand the danger of having too high government borrowing and the effects that this will have on our future growth potential.

Fox hunting- yes, totally stupid but its not governments that make people hunt foxes, its the people that do it.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Martin1988 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:45 pm

Wait, Labour dont work for a minority?

Since when the fuck was that true? Digital Economy Bill? Cash for peerages? They're two random picks from the past few years.

The problem with statist forms of socialism is that it's under the utterly untrue belief that the state can be made to work for the benefit of the working class. Nothing has ever been less true.
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby fairydandy » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:51 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:Well for example David Cameron currently proposes to give married couples £150 yearly tax break, which will cost 5.6 million a year...Not a priority!


Um....4 million people x £150, that's £600 million isn't it?
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Re: The UK election 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:05 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:Well for example David Cameron currently proposes to give married couples £150 yearly tax break, which will cost 5.6 million a year...Not a priority!


Um....4 million people x £150, that's £600 million isn't it?


Just quoting their figures. :P
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