The Pope bites the dust...

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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Belle Leisha » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:34 pm

Maybe. The thing is that I just don't think people even try to be reasonable on the subject, for the most part it seems to be an intellectual victory every time something is done or said relating to the Catholic Church that can be criticised. There are some hypocritical or in my opinion just completely wrong, things that are actually by Church law and I will freely admit to those. The sex law isn't one of them, I think it's archaic and I live in hope they'll update one day, but it is a choice and if you're right about gay priests, which is possible, I wouldn't have thought covering nearly so many cases, mostly because the church has a chronic shortage of preists. But if you are, that's not actually the fault of the church, that's external influence. Archaic church law certainly doesn't help.

Firing someone because they broke the rules is fine, if the rules are unfair don't join, I mean I don't understand it as it is! Why would you put so much pressure on yourself I mean seriously become a preist today and there are people more than willing just to assume you must be a paedophile or to accuse you of it regardless of whether they've applied a single braincell to the topic, which is ridiculous and prejudiced. But, they're the rules, you either follow them or you don't and the penalty is the same as any other job.

Things like taking on married men because priests were in such short supply is hypocritical. Perfectly legitimate firing is not.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Delilah » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:24 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:Maybe. The thing is that I just don't think people even try to be reasonable on the subject, for the most part it seems to be an intellectual victory every time something is done or said relating to the Catholic Church that can be criticised. There are some hypocritical or in my opinion just completely wrong, things that are actually by Church law and I will freely admit to those. The sex law isn't one of them, I think it's archaic and I live in hope they'll update one day, but it is a choice and if you're right about gay priests, which is possible, I wouldn't have thought covering nearly so many cases, mostly because the church has a chronic shortage of preists. But if you are, that's not actually the fault of the church, that's external influence. Archaic church law certainly doesn't help.

Firing someone because they broke the rules is fine, if the rules are unfair don't join, I mean I don't understand it as it is! Why would you put so much pressure on yourself I mean seriously become a preist today and there are people more than willing just to assume you must be a paedophile or to accuse you of it regardless of whether they've applied a single braincell to the topic, which is ridiculous and prejudiced. But, they're the rules, you either follow them or you don't and the penalty is the same as any other job.

Things like taking on married men because priests were in such short supply is hypocritical. Perfectly legitimate firing is not.


What do you mean by the bolded part? If the family wasn't taught church doctrine that God is anti-gay, maybe they wouldn't have those beliefs in the first place. That's church influence. It's hard to blame the family for believing what the church tells them is true. They are operating on faith, and the faith is based upon that particular religion.

We've been over and over the anti-sex attitude and you know why I think it's harmful to women in particular, so I won't rehash that right now.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Y2marmar » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:53 pm

Delilah wrote:What do you mean by the bolded part? If the family wasn't taught church doctrine that God is anti-gay, maybe they wouldn't have those beliefs in the first place. That's church influence. It's hard to blame the family for believing what the church tells them is true. They are operating on faith, and the faith is based upon that particular religion.

We've been over and over the anti-sex attitude and you know why I think it's harmful to women in particular, so I won't rehash that right now.


I agree. It's been drummed into people for generations and generations. It's hard to erase all that church teaching. I do believe that as we progress, people are becoming more and more open as regards sex and homosexuality. I'm not sure if the church will ever condone it, but i do feel that society in general will become more accepting
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Elessar » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:56 am

Belle Leisha wrote:Things like taking on married men because priests were in such short supply is hypocritical. Perfectly legitimate firing is not.


I think the Catholic Church is beyond accusations of hypocricy now.

In my local church, there is a board that lists all the previous priests of the church, dating back a good few hundred years. At one point a father was succeeded by his son. And now priests can't marry. How is that logical? Why have the rules changed in the last few hundred years, in a religion based around a guy from 2,000 years ago?
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Belle Leisha » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:03 am

Delilah wrote:
What do you mean by the bolded part? If the family wasn't taught church doctrine that God is anti-gay, maybe they wouldn't have those beliefs in the first place. That's church influence. It's hard to blame the family for believing what the church tells them is true. They are operating on faith, and the faith is based upon that particular religion.

We've been over and over the anti-sex attitude and you know why I think it's harmful to women in particular, so I won't rehash that right now.


I should have said not necessarily, that's assuming that the only reason for being anti-gay is religious, which it's obviously not.

No I think we've done that one to death.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Belle Leisha » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:10 am

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:Things like taking on married men because priests were in such short supply is hypocritical. Perfectly legitimate firing is not.


I think the Catholic Church is beyond accusations of hypocricy now.

In my local church, there is a board that lists all the previous priests of the church, dating back a good few hundred years. At one point a father was succeeded by his son. And now priests can't marry. How is that logical? Why have the rules changed in the last few hundred years, in a religion based around a guy from 2,000 years ago?


I just don't see how a church can be hypocritical, the church either refers to the organisation or to the collective members of the religion. So are we saying the people who run the organisation are hypcorits or Catholics in general are hypocrits or what, exactly? Because in both cases you'd have to say that's not fair. If the religion itself is riddled with hypocrisy, then by whose rule? Who says a religion can't change, everything else about society changes and we can be confident we'll agree that religion is a social construct.

In this particular case, the church hasn't done anything wrong at all, it's followed it's own rules and it's still being pointed out, so there's no winning really is there.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Elessar » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:04 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:Things like taking on married men because priests were in such short supply is hypocritical. Perfectly legitimate firing is not.


I think the Catholic Church is beyond accusations of hypocricy now.

In my local church, there is a board that lists all the previous priests of the church, dating back a good few hundred years. At one point a father was succeeded by his son. And now priests can't marry. How is that logical? Why have the rules changed in the last few hundred years, in a religion based around a guy from 2,000 years ago?


I just don't see how a church can be hypocritical, the church either refers to the organisation or to the collective members of the religion. So are we saying the people who run the organisation are hypcorits or Catholics in general are hypocrits or what, exactly? Because in both cases you'd have to say that's not fair. If the religion itself is riddled with hypocrisy, then by whose rule? Who says a religion can't change, everything else about society changes and we can be confident we'll agree that religion is a social construct.

In this particular case, the church hasn't done anything wrong at all, it's followed it's own rules and it's still being pointed out, so there's no winning really is there.


The whole of Christianity is just a mess in general. It changes rules, reinterpretes "God's word", and the huge number of different denominations is just laughable. There's no consistency whatsoever.

Is there a religion that is just straight-forward Jesusism?

I might start calling myself a Jefferson Christian. No belief in God requires, no belief in magic requires, just Jesus's teaching as a good moral code to use as a guide.

That said, he had some fairly dodgy morals. Like killing a tree just because it wasn't producing fruit, during a time when that fruit wasn't even in season!
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Belle Leisha » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:17 pm

Quite a few denominations of Christianity claim to be Jesus teachings and nothing else but whether they are or not I have no idea, equally a lot of people within all denominations only go by that. Christianity is not really a religion it's a lot of them, believing in basically the same thing, but I think that's what all religions are, and no different to minor differences between neighbouring cultures.

There are problems within organizations, corruption is inevitable alongside power, but I'd have to strenuously disagree it's in any kind of mess. It's still growing, and I can't see the problem with different denominations. The whole idea of "one religion" to make them somehow more worthy just doesn't work does it, at the moment the power of religious organisations is spread out, imagine combining even just Christianity! The more denominations there are the more independently people are thinking about it. There are problems with some religious people, but I think that's all and removing the problem of bigotry would still leave religion intact, whereas removing religion would not remove bigotry, so as ever I really think the "anti-religious" focus is in the wrong place.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Elessar » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:23 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:Quite a few denominations of Christianity claim to be Jesus teachings and nothing else but whether they are or not I have no idea, equally a lot of people within all denominations only go by that. Christianity is not really a religion it's a lot of them, believing in basically the same thing, but I think that's what all religions are, and no different to minor differences between neighbouring cultures.

There are problems within organizations, corruption is inevitable alongside power, but I'd have to strenuously disagree it's in any kind of mess. It's still growing, and I can't see the problem with different denominations. The whole idea of "one religion" to make them somehow more worthy just doesn't work does it, at the moment the power of religious organisations is spread out, imagine combining even just Christianity! The more denominations there are the more independently people are thinking about it. There are problems with some religious people, but I think that's all and removing the problem of bigotry would still leave religion intact, whereas removing religion would not remove bigotry, so as ever I really think the "anti-religious" focus is in the wrong place.


But as soon as you split up a religion, the two new religions need to justify their independence by making up differences that bear little or no relation to the original religion. Catholicism is nothing like what Jebus would have wanted, unless the Vatican have some insider knowledge that they're not making public (I'm sure they do, of course).

In some particularly sectarian parts of Northern Ireland, families hang either an Israeli or Palestinian flag outside their house, indicating their allegiance, with Catholics supporting Palestine and Protestants supporting Israel. How brain-dead is that? I can understand people 'picking a side' based on their political views, and coincidentally I do tend to side with Palestine, but the idea that your allegiance in a war between a Muslim nation and a Jewish nation should be decided by your denomination of Christianity is just absurd.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby fairydandy » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:46 pm

Is there a God, isn't there a God? Who knows? One thing I do know, for grown adults to talk about religion in any serious tone is actually beyond my level of understanding. It's the product of a human brain, it's trivial, outdated, dangerous, depressing nonsense. No one with even the remotest scrap of intelligence (if the cap fits...) can possibly believe that religion has even the tiniest basis in fact in 2010. It's a fairy tale of epic proportions...hideous, idiotic, trivial, moronic bullshit, dreamt up when we knew no better and still believed by people who really should. [/fd is having an antichrist moment]
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Elessar » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:56 pm

fairydandy wrote:[/fd is having an antichrist moment]


fairydandy shall be stoned.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I'll go get the orca.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby fairydandy » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:13 pm

Elessar wrote:
fairydandy wrote:[/fd is having an antichrist moment]


fairydandy shall be stoned.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I'll go get the orca.



...and the Godfolk gathered and the Godfolk did say to fairyeth-edandy that 'ye shall be stoned', but it came to pass that there were no stones, only rocks, so the Godfolk did say, let's rock him...and they did rock him and as they rocked him they did chanteth, we will, we will rock you...and they repeated it...and the good lord with long hair and a big red special did say that it was good and it was good.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Delilah » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:24 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Elessar wrote:
fairydandy wrote:[/fd is having an antichrist moment]


fairydandy shall be stoned.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I'll go get the orca.



...and the Godfolk gathered and the Godfolk did say to fairyeth-edandy that 'ye shall be stoned', but it came to pass that there were no stones, only rocks, so the Godfolk did say, let's rock him...and they did rock him and as they rocked him they did chanteth, we will, we will rock you...and they repeated it...and the good lord with long hair and a big red special did say that it was good and it was good.


Brilliant. :lol:

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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Elessar » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:31 pm

And so it was foreseen that there would be one who could sing the heavenly words of the main with curls. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. He did fly through the sky, but never did he ask why. He did fly until somebody did shoot him down, he was shot for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
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Re: The Pope bites the dust...

Postby Delilah » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:36 pm

fairydandy wrote:Is there a God, isn't there a God? Who knows? One thing I do know, for grown adults to talk about religion in any serious tone is actually beyond my level of understanding. It's the product of a human brain, it's trivial, outdated, dangerous, depressing nonsense. No one with even the remotest scrap of intelligence (if the cap fits...) can possibly believe that religion has even the tiniest basis in fact in 2010. It's a fairy tale of epic proportions...hideous, idiotic, trivial, moronic bullshit, dreamt up when we knew no better and still believed by people who really should. [/fd is having an antichrist moment]


That's what tends to go through my mind whenever I'm coerced into going to a church service. I was recently invited to a service that is titled, and I quote, "Loving the Lost". The preacher is a really nice nice man and I like him a whole lot. He would no more understand my offense at that invitation than I understand how he can believe in all the animals two-by-two on an ark. I'm "lost" and I need to "find Jesus". There's a total breakdown in communication when your views on reality are so different. There's really nothing to say. No conversation that can bridge the gap. Because I think that he's "lost" to rationality because he believes in a 6,000 year-old earth and Adam and Eve and angels and I can't comprehend how someone with his intelligence can buy into that or how he can be such a gentle and loving man and yet emotionally buy into the concept of eternal hellfire for sinners. I think that he's deluded, and he thinks that I'm influenced by supernatural powers. One of us is wrong.
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