Jon Venables

This is the place for topical debate and discussion about anything in the world (non-Queen related)

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Elessar » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:00 am

_Bijou_ wrote:I haven't said I want him dead, I said I wouldn't be saddened. Plenty of people have said he was released too early. That has nothing to do with journalism. People like you label people like me who seek real justice as "mobs". Maybe we're not all as forgiving as the rest of you. I don't take notice of papers' take on the story. I am not swayed by the way they describe events. I just know the facts. A little boy was tortured and killed. One of the murderers is back in prison, allegedly for a serious offence. Obviously the help he received didn't work.

I don't appreciate being called part of the "common folk". I'm not out with a pitchfork baying for his blood. I just have a very strong opinion on this. All of you can think of him as some troubled soul that made a mistake that he hopefully grew out of but I can't. I don't know how anyone can forgive something like that or even make excuses for him then moan at me for being so vocal about it.

I would have thought people wouldn't give a damn about him but he seems to be getting nothing but sympathy. You keep saying I'm a coward for not wanting to kill him myself. What crap. So you would want me to say I'd kill him just so in your eyes, I'm being moral. Don't be so ridiculous.

Like I said, plenty of people on here in the past have read an horrific story about murder or abuse. They said they should be left to die and other horrible ways they can be wiped off the face of the planet. Are they badgered about whether or not they'd actually follow through? No. Because too many people sit on the fence. God knows if something similar happened to their own child. Would you put a blanket round the person accused of killing your child and say it'll be alright?

I'm am so surprised I have got this much anger towards me. Why can't people accept that I find this crime totally appalling? Everyone will say they feel the same way too but unlike me and my mob, you'd rather spend (waste) a large amount of money on him only for him to allegedly offend again.


We all agree that it was a horrendous crime. We all agree that the crime was totalling appalling.

What some of the people in this thread disagree with you about is how quick you have been to condemn him a second time around - remember, he has not yet been charged with any new offence. He is in custody while an investigation is carried out.

The argument that people would feel differently if it was their own child misses the point. The family of James Bulger will never get over what happened, and quite rightly it is not up to them how the two boys responsible are punished. That decision must be made objectively, and without emotional involvement.

Perhaps some people have been a bit quick to put words in your mouth. You haven't called for them to be executed or killed. However you have said some very judgemental things, such as that he's pure evil and that you can see it in his eyes. The boy was just 10 - he did something absolutely appalling, but he was just 10. Society needed to try to fix him, for it's own sake as well as for his.

Also, you said that people who get drunk are "common people" or "sheep", and that a lot of people on QOL are like that. Clearly that kind of post is likely to be met with disapproval.
User avatar
Elessar
Somebody To Love
Somebody To Love
 
Posts: 9117
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:18 pm
Location: Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see

Re: Jon Venables

Postby _Bijou_ » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:19 am

I condemn him so quickly because in my eyes, he lost any rights when he killed that poor little child. I don't think anyone deserves any chances after that. That may be harsh to most on here but that's the way I feel.

I know he was 10 years old but he knew what he was doing. I could maybe understand if he was 7 or 8 but not 10. I understand he was pretty messed up but that doesn't excuse his behaviour in my opinion. I just cannot except that.

The eyes thing, I haven't just based my whole opinion on his eyes. They had a report on the news earlier about a girl on Facebook who had been killed by an older man pretending to be a young boy. They showed a photo of him and you could see there was something a bit off with him. You can tell when someone is lying by looking at their eyes and in some cases you can tell what they are like by their eyes. That is all I meant. Not "He has evil looking eyes - he is evil".

And the common remark, well that's just me, sorry. The comment that most 20 year olds go out drinking makes me less optimistic about people my own age. I would rather not see the trollops falling out of clubs and fighting in the streets. To me, "common" is the only word that springs to mind. I don't think women with sick down their clothes can be labeled as "classy". If people from here act like that, well my thoughts on that are above. Not for me I'm afraid.
Image
Image
User avatar
_Bijou_
Somebody To Love
Somebody To Love
 
Posts: 5328
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:17 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jon Venables

Postby lord of all darkness. » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:28 am

_Bijou_ wrote:I condemn him so quickly because in my eyes, he lost any rights when he killed that poor little child. I don't think anyone deserves any chances after that. That may be harsh to most on here but that's the way I feel.

I know he was 10 years old but he knew what he was doing. I could maybe understand if he was 7 or 8 but not 10. I understand he was pretty messed up but that doesn't excuse his behaviour in my opinion. I just cannot except that.

The eyes thing, I haven't just based my whole opinion on his eyes. They had a report on the news earlier about a girl on Facebook who had been killed by an older man pretending to be a young boy. They showed a photo of him and you could see there was something a bit off with him. You can tell when someone is lying by looking at their eyes and in some cases you can tell what they are like by their eyes. That is all I meant. Not "He has evil looking eyes - he is evil".

And the common remark, well that's just me, sorry. The comment that most 20 year olds go out drinking makes me less optimistic about people my own age. I would rather not see the trollops falling out of clubs and fighting in the streets. To me, "common" is the only word that springs to mind. I don't think women with sick down their clothes can be labeled as "classy". If people from here act like that, well my thoughts on that are above. Not for me I'm afraid.



Like i said previously, i disagree with some of what you are saying. But i am glad that you can come on here and express it.
lord of all darkness.
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 3967
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:27 am

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Elessar » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:29 am

_Bijou_ wrote:I condemn him so quickly because in my eyes, he lost any rights when he killed that poor little child. I don't think anyone deserves any chances after that. That may be harsh to most on here but that's the way I feel.

I know he was 10 years old but he knew what he was doing. I could maybe understand if he was 7 or 8 but not 10. I understand he was pretty messed up but that doesn't excuse his behaviour in my opinion. I just cannot except that.


This is possibly the crux of the disagreement. Unless you have some very good evidence to back up what you're saying - that something happens betwene the ages of 8 and 10 that renders people who kill as beyond rehabilitation - then you're judging entire lives on guesswork.

_Bijou wrote:The eyes thing, I haven't just based my whole opinion on his eyes. They had a report on the news earlier about a girl on Facebook who had been killed by an older man pretending to be a young boy. They showed a photo of him and you could see there was something a bit off with him. You can tell when someone is lying by looking at their eyes and in some cases you can tell what they are like by their eyes. That is all I meant. Not "He has evil looking eyes - he is evil".


There's little point in discussing the eyes thing, as I think we're both too entrenched in our views.

_Bijou_ wrote:And the common remark, well that's just me, sorry. The comment that most 20 year olds go out drinking makes me less optimistic about people my own age. I would rather not see the trollops falling out of clubs and fighting in the streets. To me, "common" is the only word that springs to mind. I don't think women with sick down their clothes can be labeled as "classy". If people from here act like that, well my thoughts on that are above. Not for me I'm afraid.


There's an element of snobbery and superiority that the word 'common' implies. I agree that some people act very poorly when they've had too much alcohol, but too dismiss that entire demographic in one sentence is very judgemental.
User avatar
Elessar
Somebody To Love
Somebody To Love
 
Posts: 9117
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:18 pm
Location: Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Delilah » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:30 am

_Bijou_ wrote:
I haven't said I want him dead, I said I wouldn't be saddened. Plenty of people have said he was released too early. That has nothing to do with journalism. People like you label people like me who seek real justice as "mobs". Maybe we're not all as forgiving as the rest of you. I don't take notice of papers' take on the story. I am not swayed by the way they describe events. I just know the facts. A little boy was tortured and killed. One of the murderers is back in prison, allegedly for a serious offence. Obviously the help he received didn't work.

I don't appreciate being called part of the "common folk". I'm not out with a pitchfork baying for his blood. I just have a very strong opinion on this. All of you can think of him as some troubled soul that made a mistake that he hopefully grew out of but I can't. I don't know how anyone can forgive something like that or even make excuses for him then moan at me for being so vocal about it.

I would have thought people wouldn't give a damn about him but he seems to be getting nothing but sympathy. You keep saying I'm a coward for not wanting to kill him myself. What crap. So you would want me to say I'd kill him just so in your eyes, I'm being moral. Don't be so ridiculous.

Like I said, plenty of people on here in the past have read an horrific story about murder or abuse. They said they should be left to die and other horrible ways they can be wiped off the face of the planet. Are they badgered about whether or not they'd actually follow through? No. Because too many people sit on the fence. God knows if something similar happened to their own child. Would you put a blanket round the person accused of killing your child and say it'll be alright?

I'm am so surprised I have got this much anger towards me. Why can't people accept that I find this crime totally appalling? Everyone will say they feel the same way too but unlike me and my mob, you'd rather spend (waste) a large amount of money on him only for him to allegedly offend again.


I am really not making excuses for the guy. Saying that he was a child is not making an excuse. As for forgiveness, he didn't do anything to me or mine, so he doesn't need my forgiveness. Had that been my own child, I'd have probably gone outright insane and tried to kill both of those boys. I'm not saying that's the right response, but it's probably what would happen. It's not what a civilized society should do, though. There is no response that will lessen the horror of that little boy's death. That can't be done. This can't be fixed.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:37 am

_Bijou_ wrote:
And the common remark, well that's just me, sorry. The comment that most 20 year olds go out drinking makes me less optimistic about people my own age. I would rather not see the trollops falling out of clubs and fighting in the streets. To me, "common" is the only word that springs to mind. I don't think women with sick down their clothes can be labeled as "classy". If people from here act like that, well my thoughts on that are above. Not for me I'm afraid.


I don't agree about him not deserving another chance, to me he was a child, but that's a difference of opinion, fair enough.

We're the same age, near enough, I don't drink, for that reason I don't go clubbing, but most people are age do and doesn't make them common or "trollops" it makes them...well our age! That's how a lot of student age people, students, in fact most of them, behave and there's nothing wrong with it, they're not hurting any one, they're behaving like normal human beings. I don't think this is at all fair. I supppose if people in their late teens or early twenties should be judged for getting drunk, a ten year old committing murder doesn't stand much of a chance. This, again is a difference of opinion, but you can see why it would provoke quite a strong reaction. In the same was as I can regarding Venebles.

What about Robert Thompson? By all accounts he was the one supposed to have really done it, Venebles was though just to have gone along with him. Do you think he should still be in prison?
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Delilah » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:40 am

_Bijou_ wrote:And the common remark, well that's just me, sorry. The comment that most 20 year olds go out drinking makes me less optimistic about people my own age. I would rather not see the trollops falling out of clubs and fighting in the streets. To me, "common" is the only word that springs to mind. I don't think women with sick down their clothes can be labeled as "classy". If people from here act like that, well my thoughts on that are above. Not for me I'm afraid.


I've been drunk many a time and I've never been opposed to casual sex. I realize that lowers your opinion of me. You call it "common", I call it "youth". I'm all manner of responsible and upstanding. I have no criminal record, I have a college degree, a decent job, and I'm a decent mother. It's just a normal part of growing up for a large percentage of society. But if we're labeling people, this whole "trollops" and "common" nonsense makes you sound like an incredibly judgmental prude. Hey, that sounds mean, doesn't it? And yet, you being against drinking and casual sex and me being okay with those things have absolutely nothing to do with our opinions on Jon Venables. Furthermore, I don't take offense at you being against drinking and screwing. We're all different. And I'm definitely too much of a smartass to ever qualify as "classy", and I'm rather happy about that.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Delilah » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:52 am

Belle Leisha wrote:We're the same age, near enough, I don't drink, for that reason I don't go clubbing, but most people are age do and doesn't make them common or "trollops" it makes them...well our age!


Trollop. I like it. Has a classy ring to it. :mrgreen:
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Jon Venables

Postby lord of all darkness. » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:55 am

Delilah wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:We're the same age, near enough, I don't drink, for that reason I don't go clubbing, but most people are age do and doesn't make them common or "trollops" it makes them...well our age!


Trollop. I like it. Has a classy ring to it. :mrgreen:


Thats cos you're American :lol: Now check your pm box.
lord of all darkness.
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 3967
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:27 am

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Trashcat » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:32 am

Trollop, trollop, strumpet, wench.

Sluuuuuuuuuuuut.
Did they tell you you should grow up when you wanted to dream
Did they warn you better shape up if you want to succeed
I don't know about you, who are they talking to, they're not talking to me
User avatar
Trashcat
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 3271
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:24 pm
Location: Albion

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Trashcat » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:33 am

(Strumpet is the best one.)
Did they tell you you should grow up when you wanted to dream
Did they warn you better shape up if you want to succeed
I don't know about you, who are they talking to, they're not talking to me
User avatar
Trashcat
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 3271
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:24 pm
Location: Albion

Re: Jon Venables

Postby fairydandy » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:36 am

I never believed at the time that both of those boys were evil. It's too much of a coincidence for it to happen really. My guess is that one of them had clear mental problems and one of them was just very impressionable (with the usual family problems in the background).

I always thought that the evil one (for want of a better word) was Venables...and to return to the 'eyes' thing again, yes that is why I thought that. No one is saying that we should judge people in a court of law by their eyes, that would be ridiculous...but just as you can see kindness, fear, laughing and other emotions in the eyes (ever see that smile where the eyes don't tell the same story?), so you can see something else, something a little darker...that's hardly scientific, but I think we all use this body language more than we realise.

I can't bring myself to hate either Thompson or Venables. I would be genuinely sad to see either of them killed in a revenge attack. That doesn't mean that I didn't cry for the little Bulger boy at the time because I really did.
User avatar
fairydandy
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 4245
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:02 am

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Ace » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:12 am

lord of all darkness. wrote:
Elessar wrote:
lord of all darkness. wrote:You are entitled to that opinion. Most people that are parents would disagree.


Fair enough. So how does that opinion constitute disgusting treatment of Bijou?


Hang on did i say that was the only treatment? Did i not also mention snide comments about being unemployed (from ace)? Comments from Dusty about being a moral coward (not that i am suprised, he always comes out when he smells the blood of a fallen pray)? When i read this thread last night, i had a mental picture of all you lot kicking and beating the shit out of Bijou. The child porn comments were just shocking.


The "snide" comments were actually aimed at getting Bijou to see that what one person sees as acceptable, another doesn't. Her argument seems to suggest that the "common" people's opinion matters less than hers because these common people exhibit behaviours that don't sit well with her own moral view point. People who drink to get drunk or sleep around are in someway less acceptable to society.

My point was that there are lots of things we "all" do that can be frowned upon and we should understand that before making such statements. If we throw stones others can throw them back.

However, if it is being unfair then I retract the post
User avatar
Ace
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:31 am
Location: I am the Ricky Gervais of Wii boxing

Re: Jon Venables

Postby Ace » Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:32 am

And, just to sum up my point of view, yes I agree that the boys were released too early, no I dont believe they are evil. Yes, Venables should go back to prison (he was on licence and that means that he will be treated differently from others commiting the same offence that he has apparently commited). Yes, I do think that we will have to, yet again, give him a new identity when he is released although this pisses me off because he's wasted his second chance. No, I dont think we should neccessarily be told what he did.

And what I really don't agree with is that we let Venables identity be known so that he is left to the mercy of the baying mob. Partly, thats because I dont trust myself not to do something stupid if I came across him so goodness knows how others might react.
User avatar
Ace
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:31 am
Location: I am the Ricky Gervais of Wii boxing

Re: Jon Venables

Postby _Bijou_ » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:20 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
_Bijou_ wrote:
And the common remark, well that's just me, sorry. The comment that most 20 year olds go out drinking makes me less optimistic about people my own age. I would rather not see the trollops falling out of clubs and fighting in the streets. To me, "common" is the only word that springs to mind. I don't think women with sick down their clothes can be labeled as "classy". If people from here act like that, well my thoughts on that are above. Not for me I'm afraid.


I don't agree about him not deserving another chance, to me he was a child, but that's a difference of opinion, fair enough.

We're the same age, near enough, I don't drink, for that reason I don't go clubbing, but most people are age do and doesn't make them common or "trollops" it makes them...well our age! That's how a lot of student age people, students, in fact most of them, behave and there's nothing wrong with it, they're not hurting any one, they're behaving like normal human beings. I don't think this is at all fair. I supppose if people in their late teens or early twenties should be judged for getting drunk, a ten year old committing murder doesn't stand much of a chance. This, again is a difference of opinion, but you can see why it would provoke quite a strong reaction. In the same was as I can regarding Venebles.

What about Robert Thompson? By all accounts he was the one supposed to have really done it, Venebles was though just to have gone along with him. Do you think he should still be in prison?


I know young people aren't hurting anyone by what they do but I don't approve of it. I know they don't need my approval but I wish it wasn't the norm to get totally wasted for the sake of it. I know it's what goes on but there you go, I just don't like it. I must be an old lady already. :P

I think both boys should have stayed longer in prison. Thompson may be keeping his nose clean for all we know now but one success story if you want to call it that, doesn't make it right in my opinion that they were released when they were.
Image
Image
User avatar
_Bijou_
Somebody To Love
Somebody To Love
 
Posts: 5328
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:17 pm
Location: United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to IS THIS THE WORLD WE CREATED?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron