Enough is enough

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:16 pm

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:Yes but a fertilised egg isn't by itself, that's the point. A handful of sperm could be but in any environment at all, and it would never become a human child. A fertislised egg left where it's fertilized, will do. I don't think it's wrong because it's "you", but because it has the potential to be, and not abstract, don't masturbate because those could all be children, type potential, but actual this will turn into a life if you let it, type potential. You could argue a baby doesn't become self aware, or become "you", till about two years old.


Leaving the embryo where it is isn't enough. The mother needs to adapt her entire lifestyle for it. It has literally no chance without the mother's cooperation.


Yes but all the mother's cooperation in the world couldn't turn your avarage clump of cells into a human! A women should be allowed to do whatever she wants with her body, but if it's a life at 16weeks what is it a fifteen weeks? How far back with that can you go before you just generally feel abortion should at the very least, not be considered a form of birth control, though like Dee said I'd don't think that's common.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:19 pm

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
A human embryo magically manifesting? Sounds like nonsense to me. That'd definitely never happen. Agreed?

(See where I'm going with that one?)


I'm not sure...Possibly but I could be on the complete wrong lines...


Immaculate conception!


Yeah I thought so. :lol: Don't change the subject when I'm not paying attention. :P If religion relied upon science God would have to be human.

Also, I could be wrong, but isn't the immaculate conception Mary, not Jesus? Immaculate Conception as in born perfect, without sin, the only women ever born without original sin, not the baby born of a virgin?
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Elessar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:20 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:Yes but a fertilised egg isn't by itself, that's the point. A handful of sperm could be but in any environment at all, and it would never become a human child. A fertislised egg left where it's fertilized, will do. I don't think it's wrong because it's "you", but because it has the potential to be, and not abstract, don't masturbate because those could all be children, type potential, but actual this will turn into a life if you let it, type potential. You could argue a baby doesn't become self aware, or become "you", till about two years old.


Leaving the embryo where it is isn't enough. The mother needs to adapt her entire lifestyle for it. It has literally no chance without the mother's cooperation.


Yes but all the mother's cooperation in the world couldn't turn your avarage clump of cells into a human! A women should be allowed to do whatever she wants with her body, but if it's a life at 16weeks what is it a fifteen weeks? How far back with that can you go before you just generally feel abortion should at the very least, not be considered a form of birth control, though like Dee said I'd don't think that's common.


I think 16 weeks and it's fair game to abort it for basically any reason. After that, it's getting a bit difficult - a baby can survive being born at 22 weeks, although it will be very ill and will need 24 hour care for quite a while.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Elessar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:20 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Yeah I thought so. :lol: Don't change the subject when I'm not paying attention. :P If religion relied upon science God would have to be human.

Also, I could be wrong, but isn't the immaculate conception Mary, not Jesus? Immaculate Conception as in born perfect, without sin, the only women ever born without original sin, not the baby born of a virgin?


Maybe - but don't people use the term 'immaculate conception' to mean a virgin birth?
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:23 pm

Elessar wrote:
I think 16 weeks and it's fair game to abort it for basically any reason. After that, it's getting a bit difficult - a baby can survive being born at 22 weeks, although it will be very ill and will need 24 hour care for quite a while.


Aborting before 16 weeks is fair game you mean? I do agree it's more human to do it then, but I don't think I could, I understand why Dee couldn't, you can't dictate those ideas to anyone, for any reason, but for me once you're pregnant, it's not akin to the violinist to ask you to carry it to term if you can.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:24 pm

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Yeah I thought so. :lol: Don't change the subject when I'm not paying attention. :P If religion relied upon science God would have to be human.

Also, I could be wrong, but isn't the immaculate conception Mary, not Jesus? Immaculate Conception as in born perfect, without sin, the only women ever born without original sin, not the baby born of a virgin?


Maybe - but don't people use the term 'immaculate conception' to mean a virgin birth?


Yes I'm thinking it's a common error though, isn't the whole Lourdes thing about Mary being the Immaculate Conception? It doesn't make sense, really not to be than, immaculate means perfect, surely it would be like, miraculous conception, for virgin birth?
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Elessar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:25 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
I think 16 weeks and it's fair game to abort it for basically any reason. After that, it's getting a bit difficult - a baby can survive being born at 22 weeks, although it will be very ill and will need 24 hour care for quite a while.


Aborting before 16 weeks is fair game you mean? I do agree it's more human to do it then, but I don't think I could, I understand why Dee couldn't, you can't dictate those ideas to anyone, for any reason, but for me once you're pregnant, it's not akin to the violinist to ask you to carry it to term if you can.


I don't think I'd be able to either, but that's because of emotions rather than ethics. I'd feel guilty and awful about it, even though I'd feel ethically sound.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Elessar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:25 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Yeah I thought so. :lol: Don't change the subject when I'm not paying attention. :P If religion relied upon science God would have to be human.

Also, I could be wrong, but isn't the immaculate conception Mary, not Jesus? Immaculate Conception as in born perfect, without sin, the only women ever born without original sin, not the baby born of a virgin?


Maybe - but don't people use the term 'immaculate conception' to mean a virgin birth?


Yes I'm thinking it's a common error though, isn't the whole Lourdes thing about Mary being the Immaculate Conception? It doesn't make sense, really not to be than, immaculate means perfect, surely it would be like, miraculous conception, for virgin birth?


Getting impregnated by God sounds fairly immauclate to me!
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:27 pm

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
I think 16 weeks and it's fair game to abort it for basically any reason. After that, it's getting a bit difficult - a baby can survive being born at 22 weeks, although it will be very ill and will need 24 hour care for quite a while.


Aborting before 16 weeks is fair game you mean? I do agree it's more human to do it then, but I don't think I could, I understand why Dee couldn't, you can't dictate those ideas to anyone, for any reason, but for me once you're pregnant, it's not akin to the violinist to ask you to carry it to term if you can.


I don't think I'd be able to either, but that's because of emotions rather than ethics. I'd feel guilty and awful about it, even though I'd feel ethically sound.


I think both, you do tend to feel guilty and awful over matters of ethics, you might on an objective level be ethically okay with abortion before 16 weeks. If in the event you couldn't do it, you'd have to think ethics came into it somewhere, otherwise what would you be feeling guilty about?
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:28 pm

Elessar wrote:
Getting impregnated by God sounds fairly immauclate to me!


Possibly but I think you'd note the odd choice of adjective.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Elessar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:29 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:I think both, you do tend to feel guilty and awful over matters of ethics, you might on an objective level be ethically okay with abortion before 16 weeks. If in the event you couldn't do it, you'd have to think ethics came into it somewhere, otherwise what would you be feeling guilty about?


Nah - I'd feel guilty about killing a small child if they ran in front of my car. No ethical violation there whatsoever, no criminal responsibility and it wouldn't have been my fault, but I'd still feel guilty.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:31 pm

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I think both, you do tend to feel guilty and awful over matters of ethics, you might on an objective level be ethically okay with abortion before 16 weeks. If in the event you couldn't do it, you'd have to think ethics came into it somewhere, otherwise what would you be feeling guilty about?


Nah - I'd feel guilty about killing a small child if they ran in front of my car. No ethical violation there whatsoever, no criminal responsibility and it wouldn't have been my fault, but I'd still feel guilty.


So personal guilt over it being you doing it, rather than ethical questionability of it being done? Fair enough.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Elessar » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:34 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:Nah - I'd feel guilty about killing a small child if they ran in front of my car. No ethical violation there whatsoever, no criminal responsibility and it wouldn't have been my fault, but I'd still feel guilty.


So personal guilt over it being you doing it, rather than ethical questionability of it being done? Fair enough.


Exactly that. As you know, I'm pro-assisted suicide and euthanasia in certain circumstances, but it'd be difficult not to still feel some level of guilt if I was responsible for it.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:44 pm

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:Nah - I'd feel guilty about killing a small child if they ran in front of my car. No ethical violation there whatsoever, no criminal responsibility and it wouldn't have been my fault, but I'd still feel guilty.


So personal guilt over it being you doing it, rather than ethical questionability of it being done? Fair enough.


Exactly that. As you know, I'm pro-assisted suicide and euthanasia in certain circumstances, but it'd be difficult not to still feel some level of guilt if I was responsible for it.


Yeah, I'd agree with that.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:07 am

Belle Leisha wrote:No absolutely, I wouldn't limit a women's choice ever, but I do think it's completely wrong. I see it as a potential child do, but not as ain a child you might have one day, a potential child int he same way as it will still be a potential child at 16 weeks. More developed, yes, but not through any further acts, to me once life has been set in motion, it's important, worth protecting, certainly not with disagarding unless you have a very good reason. As I don't think I have the right to decide what is and isn't a good reason I couldn't dictate when and where a women should or shouldn't have a baby, but personally I don't think medical or psychological issues aside, it's right.


I completely understand that view.
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