Absolute Shame on this Hospital

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Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Knute » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:05 am

I cried as I read about this poor young man.
Imagine the terrible agony he suffered.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... water.html

JLP, you work in a place like this.
Just how in the hell can something like this happen?
Everyone of them fucking nurses in charge of his care need to be charged with criminal misconduct.
Make an example of them so no one dare let this happen under their watch.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby noone » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:09 pm

Sounds like England could use a little health care reform of their own, starting with the schools. The whole staff! Makes you really think before entrusting your life at a hospital. They all knew better than him didn't they?!!!
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Ace » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:09 pm

Autumngirl wrote:Sounds like England could use a little health care reform of their own, starting with the schools. The whole staff! Makes you really think before entrusting your life at a hospital. They all knew better than him didn't they?!!!


Totally agree. I think there should be a corporate manslaughter charge bought here.

On a seperate issue, I've been wondering for sometime now about how other countries health services operate.

If someone had a heart attack in the street and did not have medical insurance, what would happen next. In the UK, they would take the person to hospital and treat them, regardless of who they were. They wouldn't worry until later if they were entitled to the free British healthcare scheme. What happens in other countries?
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Delilah » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:58 pm

Ace wrote:
Autumngirl wrote:Sounds like England could use a little health care reform of their own, starting with the schools. The whole staff! Makes you really think before entrusting your life at a hospital. They all knew better than him didn't they?!!!


Totally agree. I think there should be a corporate manslaughter charge bought here.

On a seperate issue, I've been wondering for sometime now about how other countries health services operate.

If someone had a heart attack in the street and did not have medical insurance, what would happen next. In the UK, they would take the person to hospital and treat them, regardless of who they were. They wouldn't worry until later if they were entitled to the free British healthcare scheme. What happens in other countries?


In the US, the person would be treated at the hospital regardless of medical insurance. Once they were released, they would have a bill for tens of thousands of dollars. Bankruptcy may follow. If they needed medication after they were released from the hospital, they could expect to potentially shell out hundreds of dollars per month or just not take the medications. If they need followup doctor's visits (and I'm sure they would), they could either pay $100+ dollars for each visit (not including lab tests), or just not go to the doctor and hope it doesn't happen again. Take a guess on how many people in the US die as a direct result of not having insurance coverage.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Ace » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:16 pm

Delilah wrote:
Ace wrote:Totally agree. I think there should be a corporate manslaughter charge bought here.

On a seperate issue, I've been wondering for sometime now about how other countries health services operate.

If someone had a heart attack in the street and did not have medical insurance, what would happen next. In the UK, they would take the person to hospital and treat them, regardless of who they were. They wouldn't worry until later if they were entitled to the free British healthcare scheme. What happens in other countries?


In the US, the person would be treated at the hospital regardless of medical insurance. Once they were released, they would have a bill for tens of thousands of dollars. Bankruptcy may follow. If they needed medication after they were released from the hospital, they could expect to potentially shell out hundreds of dollars per month or just not take the medications. If they need followup doctor's visits (and I'm sure they would), they could either pay $100+ dollars for each visit (not including lab tests), or just not go to the doctor and hope it doesn't happen again. Take a guess on how many people in the US die as a direct result of not having insurance coverage.


What would happen if the person clearly did not have any money at the onset. Lets say they were a tramp or such like. Would they still be taken to hospital? And if he didn't have any money, it wouldn't be worth persuing them.

Also, if they couldn't afford the drugs or aftercare, would they be left to die? Would there be no avenues left to explore. We have lots of people in the UK with no discernable net worth. I assume the USA does too. What happens in those situations. Here in the UK they would be treated regardless. In fact the UK spends millions treating patients who are not covered by our health system (non European citizens) and litterally write off the cost.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Delilah » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:04 pm

Ace wrote:What would happen if the person clearly did not have any money at the onset. Lets say they were a tramp or such like. Would they still be taken to hospital? And if he didn't have any money, it wouldn't be worth persuing them.

Also, if they couldn't afford the drugs or aftercare, would they be left to die? Would there be no avenues left to explore. We have lots of people in the UK with no discernable net worth. I assume the USA does too. What happens in those situations. Here in the UK they would be treated regardless. In fact the UK spends millions treating patients who are not covered by our health system (non European citizens) and litterally write off the cost.


Oh yes, everyone is treated by our hospitals regardless of ability to pay. And yes, it would be a waste of time to pursue payment from the homeless. The hospital writes that off, and balances out the loss by charging more for services in general. Just like any other business.

Someone with zero income might qualify for Medicaid (government run healthcare). Our largest problem isn't with those with no income. Our largest problem involves those with jobs who have no insurance. If your employer does not offer insurance, you can purchase it on your own. Last time I checked, for a family of three it was $700 per month, but that has been several years and rates have increased. If you are single, young, and in perfect health, it might be affordable. If you have children or any health problem or are of a certain age, you could be looking at up to a couple thousand dollars per month. Most working class people cannot afford to buy halfway decent health insurance on their own (and bad health insurance isn't worth the money). That leaves millions of people who live day to day hoping that they won't need medical care for anything. Anyone who has health insurance through their employers, actually has a medical problem, and loses his job in this bad economy can be in a pretty bad spot. He can either try to keep the insurance going for a period of months (WAY expensive, many hundreds to over a thousand per month and that's without his regular paycheck) or he can try to purchase insurance on his own. Many insurers won't cover you at all if you have a pre-existing condition. The definition of "pre-existing condition" can get pretty creative. I've seen a story where domestic violence was a pre-existing condition to one insurance company.

It's a bit of a mess.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Ace » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:20 pm

Delilah wrote:Oh yes, everyone is treated by our hospitals regardless of ability to pay. And yes, it would be a waste of time to pursue payment from the homeless. The hospital writes that off, and balances out the loss by charging more for services in general. Just like any other business.

Someone with zero income might qualify for Medicaid (government run healthcare). Our largest problem isn't with those with no income. Our largest problem involves those with jobs who have no insurance. If your employer does not offer insurance, you can purchase it on your own. Last time I checked, for a family of three it was $700 per month, but that has been several years and rates have increased. If you are single, young, and in perfect health, it might be affordable. If you have children or any health problem or are of a certain age, you could be looking at up to a couple thousand dollars per month. Most working class people cannot afford to buy halfway decent health insurance on their own (and bad health insurance isn't worth the money). That leaves millions of people who live day to day hoping that they won't need medical care for anything. Anyone who has health insurance through their employers, actually has a medical problem, and loses his job in this bad economy can be in a pretty bad spot. He can either try to keep the insurance going for a period of months (WAY expensive, many hundreds to over a thousand per month and that's without his regular paycheck) or he can try to purchase insurance on his own. Many insurers won't cover you at all if you have a pre-existing condition. The definition of "pre-existing condition" can get pretty creative. I've seen a story where domestic violence was a pre-existing condition to one insurance company.

It's a bit of a mess.


Without getting personal, what do you and your family have. I have private medical cover and have had for 20 odd years. Its an employer scheme (but as I'm a shareholder of the business it is in fact paid for by me). It costs only about £800 per year to cover my family but this relies on the fact that the state system will take care of most needs. I've only ever claimed on the private cover once, 18 years ago when my daughter was a baby. I could have claimed 18 months ago and gone private when I spent 5 days in hospital but decided to stay with the NHS instead.

I suppose the UK has an all encompassing system but it has many faults and so you see stories like the one above. Don't forget that there are millions of success stories too. My only criticism of the NHS is the "comfort" factor. if you go private you get a much more accomodating environment. But, when you're ill, the most important thing is that you get well, not that you enjoy your stay. To that end I suppose we're lucky.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Elessar » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:34 pm

That's clearly a shocking case, but there's no reason to believe that the nurses were 'lazy'. I really doubt that they were sitting in the staff room doing crosswords and couldn't be bothered to give him his drugs. There was clearly a serious breakdown in communication and there definitely will have to be a very thorough inquiry, and some people may well find themselves in serious trouble. But I don't think that assuming that it was due to laziness is helpful to anyone.

Also, the newspaper has got some fairly important facts wrong. Hypernatraemia is an elevated level of sodium, and will cause the patient to feel extremely thirsty. However it is not the same as dehydration, and giving them water until they stop feeling thirsty may well lead to dangerously high blood pressure. Once again, the Daily Mail has reported the story that it wants to report (the boy was so thirsty he had to phone to police) and not the one that it has a duty to report.

But yes, it sounds like a huge mess, and needs to be sorted out so that it doesn't happen again.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby noone » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:56 pm

Ace wrote:I suppose the UK has an all encompassing system but it has many faults and so you see stories like the one above. Don't forget that there are millions of success stories too. My only criticism of the NHS is the "comfort" factor. if you go private you get a much more accomodating environment. But, when you're ill, the most important thing is that you get well, not that you enjoy your stay. To that end I suppose we're lucky.


Well no system is perfect. I'm sure many of the same problems exist if a country has a national health care system or a private insurance company like we do. The difference is like Dee has pointed out, is that people don't go into debt and lose their homes and jobs and things if they get sick with a NHS. Opponants of a NHS here keep accusing supporters of it of wanting everything for free but its not is it?! You still pay for it through a tax of fund don't you! But what your not paying for is million dollar+ bonuses for CEOs and high level employees. So your taxes are probably way less than our premiums!
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Delilah » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:09 pm

Ace wrote:Without getting personal, what do you and your family have. I have private medical cover and have had for 20 odd years. Its an employer scheme (but as I'm a shareholder of the business it is in fact paid for by me). It costs only about £800 per year to cover my family but this relies on the fact that the state system will take care of most needs. I've only ever claimed on the private cover once, 18 years ago when my daughter was a baby. I could have claimed 18 months ago and gone private when I spent 5 days in hospital but decided to stay with the NHS instead.

I suppose the UK has an all encompassing system but it has many faults and so you see stories like the one above. Don't forget that there are millions of success stories too. My only criticism of the NHS is the "comfort" factor. if you go private you get a much more accomodating environment. But, when you're ill, the most important thing is that you get well, not that you enjoy your stay. To that end I suppose we're lucky.


I and my two children have coverage through my employer for $211 per month. That's pretty good, and probably has something to do with our clients being insurance companies. The copays and the things that insurance doesn't cover tend to get pretty annyong, though. I think I've had $500 of out-of-pocket expenses so far this year. I'm one of the lucky ones when it comes to healthcare. I've been on the other side of it though, and that's scary. Being without insurance coverage is horrible. Even with it, it sometimes takes numerous follow-up calls to get the insurance company to cover what they should, because they will deny a legitimate claim for trivial reasons unrelated to the actual medical claim. It's a game, I suppose. If you don't take the time to review a bill, you often wind up paying things that the insurance company was supposed to pay.

$800 per year, wow! That would be fantastic! Honestly, even with your problems, I think we'd be much better off with universal healthcare than the capitalist money-making system that we have now. It isn't about health. It's about pleasing the stockholders.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Ace » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:10 pm

Autumngirl wrote:Well no system is perfect. I'm sure many of the same problems exist if a country has a national health care system or a private insurance company like we do. The difference is like Dee has pointed out, is that people don't go into debt and lose their homes and jobs and things if they get sick with a NHS. Opponants of a NHS here keep accusing supporters of it of wanting everything for free but its not is it?! You still pay for it through a tax of fund don't you! But what your not paying for is million dollar+ bonuses for CEOs and high level employees. So your taxes are probably way less than our premiums!


Agreed. But there is a hell of a lot of waste in the NHS. Huge amounts of money are wasted. The next government will almost certainly try to scrap the new centralised computer recordfs system that has been commissioned and already is the most expensive IT project in history.

The problem with the UK NHS is that it has become a sacred cow. No political party will look to reform it as it would be a very unpopular move. It is probably the single most important issue to voters.

I wasn't impressed with my stay in hospital 18 months ago but, they got me well again so I cant complain. But it is at breaking point.

We need a revolution in the NHS but we wont get it. Instead we throw money at the problems and hope this helps. To some degree it does but it is not addressing the real issues. We get £1 of improvements for every £2 spent or at least thats the way I see it.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Elessar » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:15 pm

The NHS is constantly being reformed - I'm sure there's an average of something like 3 reforms each year! Not big reforms, of course - little things. I'm not sure what good a major overhaul could do though.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby noone » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:12 pm

Ace wrote:
Autumngirl wrote:Well no system is perfect. I'm sure many of the same problems exist if a country has a national health care system or a private insurance company like we do. The difference is like Dee has pointed out, is that people don't go into debt and lose their homes and jobs and things if they get sick with a NHS. Opponants of a NHS here keep accusing supporters of it of wanting everything for free but its not is it?! You still pay for it through a tax of fund don't you! But what your not paying for is million dollar+ bonuses for CEOs and high level employees. So your taxes are probably way less than our premiums!


Agreed. But there is a hell of a lot of waste in the NHS. Huge amounts of money are wasted. The next government will almost certainly try to scrap the new centralised computer recordfs system that has been commissioned and already is the most expensive IT project in history.

The problem with the UK NHS is that it has become a sacred cow. No political party will look to reform it as it would be a very unpopular move. It is probably the single most important issue to voters.

I wasn't impressed with my stay in hospital 18 months ago but, they got me well again so I cant complain. But it is at breaking point.

We need a revolution in the NHS but we wont get it. Instead we throw money at the problems and hope this helps. To some degree it does but it is not addressing the real issues. We get £1 of improvements for every £2 spent or at least thats the way I see it.


One could take what you've written here and replace NHS with Employer-based for profit health care and you could be talking about our health care system. But we are closer than ever before of getting things done, I just wish it would include a public option. We need a public option!
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby JLP » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:38 pm

Knute wrote:I cried as I read about this poor young man.
Imagine the terrible agony he suffered.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... water.html

JLP, you work in a place like this.
Just how in the hell can something like this happen?
Everyone of them fucking nurses in charge of his care need to be charged with criminal misconduct.
Make an example of them so no one dare let this happen under their watch.



looks more or less indefensible to me. Yep something needs to be done and hopefully will.

We have a code of conduct which appears to have been totally thrown out of the window here.
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Re: Absolute Shame on this Hospital

Postby Loretta » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:35 am

JLP wrote:looks more or less indefensible to me. Yep something needs to be done and hopefully will.

We have a code of conduct which appears to have been totally thrown out of the window here.

Of course, this is just going by the newspaper report, which will no doubt have a retraction of some of the statements buried on page 15 underneath an advert for healthcare insurance sometime next year.

With regards to the state of the NHS, the problem I certainly found when I was working in it was that with all the gradual reforms, they'd have to bring in someone to check that the reforms were worthwhile. At huge expense. Then there'd be a review committee, who would appoint even more middle-management to implement the changes to the previous changes. When I left, my ward had 7 full time experienced nurses, and 5 paper-pushing failures who were all trying to justify their own existence. There does need to be a change in the NHS, and the change is a culling of everyone who has no business being there other than business.
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