The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:59 am

Elessar wrote:I think that's a historical quirk rather than anything else - when the italian age of consent was raised to 14, it didn't affect the Vatican laws which stayed the same. But unless it takes place in the Vatican and the perpetrator is arrested in the Vatican, they'll be tried under Italian law anyway.

It does sum them up though. Surely there should be no age of consent at all, as everyone should really be celibate?


I was not aware that "consent" was an important part of priests' sex lives. :P
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:10 am

Delilah wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I'm not sure that's in his mandate. :P Why what's he done now, specifically or is this a general he needs to shut up?


Oh, it's just the same old stuff, just that now Ratzy is said to be personally responsible for covering up child rape in Germany before his Pope days.

See, the average normal person would be mortified and go hide under a rock (probably in fear of jailtime), but he's gonna trounce around the world in full view of the public. Surreal.


I'm going to have to go and find a rock of my own in a minute on account of Elessar's post mentioning the "moral" crusades, but just before I do ( :P ) does "said to", not worry you slightly? If he wasn't The Pope would the line not be innocent until at least more than "said to" be guilty? It would stun me to hear that accusation had not be made. If he's guilty...well you can't actually get rid of a Pope until they die so I'm not sure what the Vatican move should be, but certainly a police matter. Until then I don't think he should be doing any hiding, if he did cancel his Pope tour I'd think considerably less of him and at the moment that could be saying a lot.
Last edited by Belle Leisha on Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:21 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Delilah wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I'm not sure that's in his mandate. :P Why what's he done now, specifically or is this a general he needs to shut up?


Oh, it's just the same old stuff, just that now Ratzy is said to be personally responsible for covering up child rape in Germany before his Pope days.

See, the average normal person would be mortified and go hide under a rock (probably in fear of jailtime), but he's gonna trounce around the world in full view of the public. Surreal.


I'm going to have to go and find a rock of my own in a minute on account of loretta's post mentioning the "moral" crusades, but just before I do ( :P ) does "said to", not worry you slightly? If he wasn't The Pope would the line not be innocent until at least more than "said to" be guilty? It would stun me to hear that accusation had not be made. If he's guilty...well you can't actually get rid of a Pope until they die so I'm not sure what the Vatican move should be, but certainly a police matter. Until then I don't think he should be doing any hiding, if he did cancel his Pope tour I'd think considerably less of him and at the moment that could be saying a lot.


I agree that he should be innocent until proven guilty. However, I don't think he's getting different treatment in that respect because people don't like him, I think he's getting different treatment because members of the Catholic Church committing sexual abuse crimes against children has happened so many times that it's no longer surprising.

But yes, he should of course be innocent until proven guilty, and as ever, I hope he's innocent.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Loretta » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:29 am

Belle Leisha wrote:I'm going to have to go and find a rock of my own in a minute on account of loretta's post mentioning the "moral" crusades,

Hold on, I never mentioned "moral" crusades... I was just commenting on an interesting fact I learned on Twitter... I was blissfully unaware of the recent controversy.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:31 am

Elessar wrote:
I agree that he should be innocent until proven guilty. However, I don't think he's getting different treatment in that respect because people don't like him, I think he's getting different treatment because members of the Catholic Church committing sexual abuse crimes against children has happened so many times that it's no longer surprising.

But yes, he should of course be innocent until proven guilty, and as ever, I hope he's innocent.


Yeah, definitely. Although the numbers of Catholic clergy actually committing acts of sexual abuse is completely average, surely, the scandal was in the cover up?
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:33 am

Loretta wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I'm going to have to go and find a rock of my own in a minute on account of loretta's post mentioning the "moral" crusades,

Hold on, I never mentioned "moral" crusades... I was just commenting on an interesting fact I learned on Twitter... I was blissfully unaware of the recent controversy.


Oops, sorry it wasn't you it was El. I'll edit. :P
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Loretta » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:34 am

Belle Leisha wrote:Oops, sorry it wasn't you it was El. I'll edit. :P

Don't worry, nobody reads this anyway without a predetermined agenda :cool:
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:42 am

Loretta wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:Oops, sorry it wasn't you it was El. I'll edit. :P

Don't worry, nobody reads this anyway without a predetermined agenda :cool:


Shh, there are at least four of here who like to pretend there's an outside chance of our views changing. :P
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:49 am

I used to be Catholic! My mind can and has changed!
It won't change back, of course.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Loretta » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:51 am

Elessar wrote:I used to be Catholic! My mind can and has changed!
It won't change back, of course.

I used to be a protestant, but then I got too old, and the money just wasn't there.

Oh, hold on, I may have meant prostitute.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:51 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Elessar wrote:
I agree that he should be innocent until proven guilty. However, I don't think he's getting different treatment in that respect because people don't like him, I think he's getting different treatment because members of the Catholic Church committing sexual abuse crimes against children has happened so many times that it's no longer surprising.

But yes, he should of course be innocent until proven guilty, and as ever, I hope he's innocent.


Yeah, definitely. Although the numbers of Catholic clergy actually committing acts of sexual abuse is completely average, surely, the scandal was in the cover up?


I don't know actually - I wonder if there are any stats?
I suspect that the cover up and the fact that priests are in a position of rgeat trust means that more crimes went unreported and therefore continued to happen.
Also it's possible that priests are in a higher risk category for paedophilic tendencies due to the celibacy (you don't often hear of Church of England child abuse cases), but that's just speculation.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:01 am

Elessar wrote:I used to be Catholic! My mind can and has changed!
It won't change back, of course.


Sweet Jebus.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8631&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=109

Scary thing is, I was only a little bit younger back then than Belle is now - and my arguments were SO much weaker than hers are.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:08 am

Elessar wrote:
Elessar wrote:I used to be Catholic! My mind can and has changed!
It won't change back, of course.


Sweet Jebus.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8631&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=109

Scary thing is, I was only a little bit younger back then than Belle is now - and my arguments were SO much weaker than hers are.


We're arguing about very different things. I'm in favour of religion and I happen to be vaguely Catholic, if I wasn't I'd still be in favour of religion. You were arguing for your faith, it's not really a fair comparrison, it would take far less for me to change my mind because I'm not that invested.

And I used to be atheist!
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:16 am

Belle Leisha wrote:I'm going to have to go and find a rock of my own in a minute on account of Elessar's post mentioning the "moral" crusades, but just before I do ( :P ) does "said to", not worry you slightly? If he wasn't The Pope would the line not be innocent until at least more than "said to" be guilty? It would stun me to hear that accusation had not be made. If he's guilty...well you can't actually get rid of a Pope until they die so I'm not sure what the Vatican move should be, but certainly a police matter. Until then I don't think he should be doing any hiding, if he did cancel his Pope tour I'd think considerably less of him and at the moment that could be saying a lot.


Yeah yeah, I should give him more "innocent until proven guilty", but it's kinda like giving a mob leader the benefit of the doubt when someone with a gambling debt winds up at the bottom of a river. :P Sure, he could be innocent, but given the culture of the Catholic hierarchy when it comes to child molestation by priests, I'd be surprised if he didn't do at least as bad as he's accused of if not far worse. Seems it was almost part of his job description to pass the pedophile on to another parish and avoid the criminal justice system. So I'm prejudiced, I guess.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:22 am

I don't agree with that at all but that particular debate would be a lost cause, I think! Honestly I'd like some real information on the whole thing, figures, stats, facts, and real ones, not media hype. I want to know what actually happened because life in a Catholic Parish doesn't tally with this account. In my larger diocese there has been a couple of incidents of Priests going to prison for child abuse, similar number of teachers, slightly higher number of other child care related jobs, which all tallies with general paedophilia stats and relative ease of certain job positions. So just what are we talking about here? It wouldn't matter if it was one incident covered up by the church, of course, but I would like some facts. There seems to be a glaring lack of them on this subject.
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