The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:42 am

Belle Leisha wrote:I don't agree with that at all but that particular debate would be a lost cause, I think! Honestly I'd like some real information on the whole thing, figures, stats, facts, and real ones, not media hype. I want to know what actually happened because life in a Catholic Parish doesn't tally with this account. In my larger diocese there has been a couple of incidents of Priests going to prison for child abuse, similar number of teachers, slightly higher number of other child care related jobs, which all tallies with general paedophilia stats and relative ease of certain job positions. So just what are we talking about here? It wouldn't matter if it was one incident covered up by the church, of course, but I would like some facts. There seems to be a glaring lack of them on this subject.


If the number of priests is roughly the same as the number of teachers that you know of who have gone to prison for child abuse, then doesn't that indicate (with admittedly a small sample size) that priests are more likely to be paedophiles than teachers? Surely you know far more teachers than priests?

My stats are similar - 1 teacher, 1 priest. But I probably know of over 100 teachers, but only about 6 priests.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:58 am

Elessar wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I don't agree with that at all but that particular debate would be a lost cause, I think! Honestly I'd like some real information on the whole thing, figures, stats, facts, and real ones, not media hype. I want to know what actually happened because life in a Catholic Parish doesn't tally with this account. In my larger diocese there has been a couple of incidents of Priests going to prison for child abuse, similar number of teachers, slightly higher number of other child care related jobs, which all tallies with general paedophilia stats and relative ease of certain job positions. So just what are we talking about here? It wouldn't matter if it was one incident covered up by the church, of course, but I would like some facts. There seems to be a glaring lack of them on this subject.


If the number of priests is roughly the same as the number of teachers that you know of who have gone to prison for child abuse, then doesn't that indicate (with admittedly a small sample size) that priests are more likely to be paedophiles than teachers? Surely you know far more teachers than priests?

My stats are similar - 1 teacher, 1 priest. But I probably know of over 100 teachers, but only about 6 priests.


I don't know any of them, thankfully! The diocese covers the whole of Birmingham, whereas I only heard of incidents with teachers in my immediate area which is relatively tiny, so no, not a workable sample. To go back to your other points, it is true you don't hear of that many incidents within the church of England, but there are a lot of considerations there. I mean obviously I hope the reason is that there just aren't any, but that seems unlikely. The CoE is tiny, compared the RCC, for one thing, the CoE is also rather media friendly, it wouldn't get anything like the hype even if there were incidents. I don't buy the celibacy idea at all, if that did influence people everything in psychology about paedophilia would be skewed, wouldn't it? Circustances influencing orientation makes sense to a certain extent, but not influence otherwise innocent people to assault children.

If the suggestion there is not that lots of priests become paedophiles, but that lots of paedophiles become priests, then I'm not sure about that either. Becoming a priest isn't easy, it takes years, and without being too crude about it there are other jobs with much more access to children which doesn't take so long or require a degree or years in seminary. Again, some facts here are desperately needed. It's now completely commonplace to assume every other priest have either molested a child or covered up for another who has, I believe in fd's words, the RCC is "little more than a paedophile ring". It's just insane, or I would have thought it is but I really don't know ANY facts at all. I'd like to be clear on what is actually known.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:59 am

Elessar wrote:
Elessar wrote:I used to be Catholic! My mind can and has changed!
It won't change back, of course.


Sweet Jebus.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8631&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=109

Scary thing is, I was only a little bit younger back then than Belle is now - and my arguments were SO much weaker than hers are.


Fuck me.

Back in 2004, when he was young and foolish, Elessar wrote:Genesis is now almost universally accepted as nonsense (although Darwin's theory of evolution and the Big Bang theory are both almost equally improbable)
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:08 am

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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:10 am

What a dumbass. :P
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:13 am

I read on for a few more pages and had to close it in disgust. Stupid, stupid boy.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:16 am

The maths teacher who I used as my one and only source for that Darwin bullshit (and even admitted it in the thread!) was a massive Christian. I remember once, he was helping one of my friends with his physics homework. He explained red-shift, a pehnomenon that provides evidence that the universe is expanding. He explained the physics, and made sure that my friend fully understood it. Then he said, "But none of it's actually true". He went on to say that the chances of the Big Bang happening and forming the universe the way it is is many billions-to-one, and that the same is true of evolution.

Urgh. Utter nonsense. With the Big Bang, yes, it may be extremely unlikely, but that's true of any chaotic system. Something had to happen, and our universe just so happens to be what happened.

As for evolution...weasels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:19 am

It's that you say it with such confidence. :lol:
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:20 am

Belle Leisha wrote:It's that you say it with such confidence. :lol:


Back then I was still arrogant and cocky, but didn't have pens in my pocket.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:22 am

Ahh...fond memories of bitchslapping Ellie in religious arguments. And I was so much nicer back then. 1,375 religious arguments later and I sound more like fd. :P

Delilah wrote:Thing is, just because we don't understand it now doesn't mean that we won't some day. Show a man who lived in 1542 an airplane or a television and you'd drive him right out of his mind. Then he'd have you burned at the stake for performing witchcraft.

I think you are making a choice to believe in God, and that's okay. You can certainly do that. You can list the reasons that you believe. You just can't prove that there is any rational basis for your beliefs. That's why religions require faith on the part of believers.

Elessar wrote:If there were no humans, would there be a god? This was a question asked a few pages back.

I believe that God controlled evolution, therefore he was around before us and will be around after us. Why dinosaurs here then? Well, why not? We have no idea what fun he's having up there. I wonder how many planets with life on he has to fiddle around with?

Joking apart, I think he (she, it) puts together the ingredients and lets them do what they like. I think that 'life' is one ingredient which CANNOT be scientifically explained, which God adds into a universe which largely controls itself.

Try explaining life. It can't be explained. The interactions between atoms, creating nucleotides, creating chromosomes, creating genes, creating amino acids, creating proteins, creating tissues, creating organs, creating organisms; can be explained, but LIFE can't be explained. You can take the raw materials found in a living organism but you can't re-create a living organism. This can only be done by nature - by God.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Loretta » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:23 am

I'm teaching him everything he thought he knew.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:28 am

Loretta my darling, that's going to change his love life dramatically. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Elessar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:29 am

Delilah wrote:Ahh...fond memories of bitchslapping Ellie in religious arguments. And I was so much nicer back then. 1,375 religious arguments later and I sound more like fd. :P


I think I'm far more militant in religious discussions than you are. You're still essentially polite and civil - I lose my patience very early on, and start doing all sorts of stupid things like referring to science, or people with degrees.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:29 am

Elessar...tee hee hee...you got so much smarter. That thread is a classic.

Delilah wrote:People still talking about it is far from proof. There are older religions than Christianity that are still fervently believed, but if Jesus was the Messiah and the other religions are false, your argument doesn't hold up.
Elessar wrote:A Messiah isn't just a good man. He's a messenger from God (if God exists) - in a way - he IS God. MLK was a brilliant man and helped the Civil Rights movement tremendously, but did he die for his cause? Well, he did die, but did he willingly give up his life FOR us? And would he forgive his murderer as the bullet was speeding towards his head? I really do doubt it.

This is why I believe the story of Jesus is true:-
Well, this very conversation. The fact that 2,000 years later we're still talking about it and its the pinnacle of the largest religion in the world.

There was nothing miraculous about John Lennon. He did good things and he did bad things, and his good things were very good indeed. But he's not a messenger from God. Maybe he spreads God's message, but thats different. I could do that if I wanted to.
He didn't cure anyone who was sick, or bring anyone back from the dead, and indeed once he was dead, he was bloody dead. No resurrection for him.

And people say "Jesus didn't really come back to life."

Then why didn't people jup to this obvious conclusion 2,000 years ago? Why do people STILL believe such a ridiculous concept? The very fact they they do, suggests to me that its true.
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Re: The Pope - UK tour dates 2010

Postby Delilah » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:31 am

Elessar wrote:
Delilah wrote:Ahh...fond memories of bitchslapping Ellie in religious arguments. And I was so much nicer back then. 1,375 religious arguments later and I sound more like fd. :P


I think I'm far more militant in religious discussions than you are. You're still essentially polite and civil - I lose my patience very early on, and start doing all sorts of stupid things like referring to science, or people with degrees.


That's because I'm like soooooo mature or whatever.

I still read it as "penis in my pocket" every time. Jeez.
Last edited by Delilah on Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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