Enough is enough

This is the place for topical debate and discussion about anything in the world (non-Queen related)

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:16 pm

Delilah wrote:
Ace wrote:They can't just think of it as a religious issue. Its a legal issue. They have broken man's law and man's law in the UK is above that of their God. They need to understand this.


To be fair, child rape is technically against their God's laws too. Probably calls for some punishment like stoning. Harming children wasn't Jesus' favorite thing either (something about being better off thrown into the sea with a millstone about your neck than to harm a child...mob style stuff). This doesn't seem to have bothered the Catholic hierarchy any more than human laws did.


Ah ha, hence why this should be treated as a legal issue, full stop. Clearly religious laws aren't standing in their way at all.
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:22 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Delilah wrote:
Ace wrote:They can't just think of it as a religious issue. Its a legal issue. They have broken man's law and man's law in the UK is above that of their God. They need to understand this.


To be fair, child rape is technically against their God's laws too. Probably calls for some punishment like stoning. Harming children wasn't Jesus' favorite thing either (something about being better off thrown into the sea with a millstone about your neck than to harm a child...mob style stuff). This doesn't seem to have bothered the Catholic hierarchy any more than human laws did.


Ah ha, hence why this should be treated as a legal issue, full stop. Clearly religious laws aren't standing in their way at all.


Didn't say that. The RCC is a religion, and the RCC's laws are the problem. Religious laws, not God's laws. Not that I believe in a god of any kind, but clearly if they believe in it, from their perspective they are breaking God's laws as well as man's laws with their religious laws. I have said more than once that the RCC doesn't follow the bible that closely. :P

I feel the need to state that I am 100% opposed to anyone following biblical law on much of anything. But to claim to and then not, well that's hypocrisy.

I agree that it's a legal issue. Trouble is, it's only recently been that people insist it be treated like a legal issue. Why? Because it is religion.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:12 pm

Well arguable Catholocism is the Religion, The RCC is the organisation plugging it. They are violating God's laws accoridng to themselves, but they're also violating religious laws rather more tangibly. Priests are celibate, remember? The hypocrisy is within the individuals involved, not the religion.

Paedophilia, laws not being maintained, people protecting their reputations above morals, are not part of religion, they're something people do. Religion has been something people have respected unquestioningly for a long time, I agree that needs to change, but it would be a horrifying reflection on society if the best we can come up with in that instance is to start untterly disrespecting religions as opposed to move towards a change for generally higher respect for society, uncompromised maintaining of the law included.

I've said a few times now and it's sort of in the same category as admitting to being pro-religion and pro-Marxism in terms of not being an overly popular view, that war is the global equivalent of toddlers throwing toys out of prams. The idea that the answer to "undeserved respect" is just general disrespect is essentially a teenage statement off "whatever". :P That abuse of power, in all of it's hideous forms is rife in every single organisation with power in the western world, is guesswork but fairly likely guesswork, if a situation can be abused, it will be by a certain few.

The Catholic Church aren't just the ones that got caught, there the ones who in between threats of arrest, are trying to remove the opportunity. Bishops now all over the world are urging victims to come foreward, that is officials of the church, encouraging an even bigger scandal! This is to ensure "total transparency" I think was the quote, regarding the church's past and to pledge it ends now. There's also a telling mention of reporting cases to "the relevant authorities"...not leaving it up to the church in other words. I'll post the article but you've have to weave around weird Pope quotes about tests and descriptions of what The Pope was doing during Holy Week. http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2010/04/pope_benedict_sees_sex_scandal_as_test_bishops_urge_reform.html

If we're going to say now that respect for religion needs removing, then what exactly should religions reform for? They can and given the right set of circumstances they will do, have done, agonisingly slowly over a whole lot of years. Urging religions to earn respect, would be the way to go, not just deciding that the actions of the few will forever mean religion is just a means of paedophilia and that The Pope be he guilty or not should be charged for crimes against humanity. :P I'm pretty sure the relevant charge is actually perverting the course of justice anyway.

I think the RCC are generally, not very good at handling things. My mom threw out a proverb ealrier I thought very fitting to their attitude "least said sooner mended". Clearly, that's no way of doing things and does seem to be their general way. Now they've been given no choice, for any vague sense of justice but also for the sake of the church they have to face this and handle it. I'm not convinced the productive reaction to that is to stand by and mock while officials are falling over themselves with ineptitude.
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:36 am

Belle Leisha wrote:Well arguable Catholocism is the Religion, The RCC is the organisation plugging it. They are violating God's laws accoridng to themselves, but they're also violating religious laws rather more tangibly. Priests are celibate, remember? The hypocrisy is within the individuals involved, not the religion.

Paedophilia, laws not being maintained, people protecting their reputations above morals, are not part of religion, they're something people do. Religion has been something people have respected unquestioningly for a long time, I agree that needs to change, but it would be a horrifying reflection on society if the best we can come up with in that instance is to start untterly disrespecting religions as opposed to move towards a change for generally higher respect for society, uncompromised maintaining of the law included.

I've said a few times now and it's sort of in the same category as admitting to being pro-religion and pro-Marxism in terms of not being an overly popular view, that war is the global equivalent of toddlers throwing toys out of prams. The idea that the answer to "undeserved respect" is just general disrespect is essentially a teenage statement off "whatever". :P That abuse of power, in all of it's hideous forms is rife in every single organisation with power in the western world, is guesswork but fairly likely guesswork, if a situation can be abused, it will be by a certain few.

The Catholic Church aren't just the ones that got caught, there the ones who in between threats of arrest, are trying to remove the opportunity. Bishops now all over the world are urging victims to come foreward, that is officials of the church, encouraging an even bigger scandal! This is to ensure "total transparency" I think was the quote, regarding the church's past and to pledge it ends now. There's also a telling mention of reporting cases to "the relevant authorities"...not leaving it up to the church in other words. I'll post the article but you've have to weave around weird Pope quotes about tests and descriptions of what The Pope was doing during Holy Week. http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2010/04/pope_benedict_sees_sex_scandal_as_test_bishops_urge_reform.html

If we're going to say now that respect for religion needs removing, then what exactly should religions reform for? They can and given the right set of circumstances they will do, have done, agonisingly slowly over a whole lot of years. Urging religions to earn respect, would be the way to go, not just deciding that the actions of the few will forever mean religion is just a means of paedophilia and that The Pope be he guilty or not should be charged for crimes against humanity. :P I'm pretty sure the relevant charge is actually perverting the course of justice anyway.

I think the RCC are generally, not very good at handling things. My mom threw out a proverb ealrier I thought very fitting to their attitude "least said sooner mended". Clearly, that's no way of doing things and does seem to be their general way. Now they've been given no choice, for any vague sense of justice but also for the sake of the church they have to face this and handle it. I'm not convinced the productive reaction to that is to stand by and mock while officials are falling over themselves with ineptitude.


Funny, the rules they upheld were the ones that benefited the organization the most at the time. So yes, it's human incompetence and human fallibility, the love of power and all that. I never said that religion invented human fallibility. What it does is put God's stamp of approval on all manner of human fuckery. It makes them more than regular people. It puts them just a bit more above reproach than the average human being. Organized religion is a dangerous thing, because all power corrupts. With a religion, the corrupted can hide behind God to avoid punishment. It gives human beings and flawed human concepts undeserved respect. So no, I can't ever see organized religion being a positive thing. It's a thing that enslaves the minds of it's followers and makes kings of the pious. So "whatever", I guess.

As a side-note, I don't know that a religion can ever demand respect as long as they preach ignorance and bigotry. Seriously, I have a hard time taking people seriously who claim to know that magical things happen for which there is zero zip nada evidence. Who claim not only to know that a being created the universe, but who that being is and what he thinks of our sex lives. And then they, almost without fail, try to impose their moral concepts upon the unwilling. That isn't even going into the indoctrination of children, which is the only reason that individual religions continue long enough to become huge organized religions.

So if we don't give them respect, what do they have to reform for? Oh please, they only reform when they have absolutely no choice. When it's a matter of survival. God's laws are unchanging, until society changes and they start becoming irrelevant.

It may make me childish, but I enjoy mocking those who claim moral superiority and then get caught literally with their pants down doing even worse things than what they rant and rave against. "Ooh, gay marriage is an abomination and homosexuality is a mental illness and a sin!" Then they get caught covering up child rape. I take it back, the moral outrage from this atheist is my primary reaction. The mocking is the only thing that makes the stories endurable.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:29 am

Power does corrupt, but religion is more than just very powerful. That said I don't think it commands any respect at all and nor is anyone obligated to give it, that's really not what I mean. I mean, that is we're going to say right, well for various reasons now organised religion is just in no way a positive thing, what exactly are organised religions supposed to do about that? It's completely untrue to say they reform when they have to, this is an isolated case and they don't actually need to do anything about it at all, to say their repuation is in tatters and guilt is coming out one way or another, would be quite an under statement.

The majority have chosen to encourage total exposure to stop anything like it ever happening again. In the past, church reform is bourne of dissatisfaction of those within it, and to an extent as I said before, I do absolutely think that's what needs to happen now, but in a lot of ways it is doing. Every ordinary Catholic in the world wants genuine justice and church officials all over the world are worsening their own scandal to make sure nothing is left covered up this time. No one is one is forcing them to do that and you can oh please till kingdom come, they're doing the right thing.

That you're an atheist, we can hope, has absolutely nothing to do with your outrage about child abuse. Heh, I'm not sure religious people are the claims of moral superiority lot anymore. I'm not sure we're on the same page about 'mocking' though, I'm not talking about you or general forum posters making jokes...that would be totally hypocritical! I mean the moral outrage that so quickly turns into childish insults when someone publically lobbying for arrests wants publicity. Hitchens, Dawkins, anyone publically agreeing with them, are trying to force an official act here, yet they can't resist their own prejudices slipping through. Nothing will happen there, people will be polarised, others will be amused and this will all die down in the end, without effect. At some point you've got to stop pointing out they're men in dresses and start saying there's a fundemental problem with church heirachy and they have to do something about it. To the best of our knowledge the Catholic Church is here to stay, that's a good thing to me, but I do believe they handle situations in general epically badly and that needs to change, because it leaves itself open to things like this as as we have said, power corrupts. So in my opinion it would be both right and practical, to put aside hatred for religion in the media and focus on making sure children are not continuing to be put in danger.


Again though I do think there's a difference between religion and the church, religion does not enslave anyone, people indoctrinate other people, it undermines every free thinking religious person in teh world, to suggest religion and enslavement go hand in hand. As I understood it slavery didn't require religion for the world to allow it and think nothing wrong of it. Nor does it make kings of the pius, some churches have a sort of heirachy, others don't, there are religion in the world that wouldn't even recognise piety. The Catholic Church has more than it's fair share of pompous prats, often given power. It also has a whole lot of brilliant, good people who aren't using the authority of God to force anyone to think anything, they're just precahing what they believe in. No one with or without God is any different to that.
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:56 am

Belle Leisha wrote:Power does corrupt, but religion is more than just very powerful. That said I don't think it commands any respect at all and nor is anyone obligated to give it, that's really not what I mean. I mean, that is we're going to say right, well for various reasons now organised religion is just in no way a positive thing, what exactly are organised religions supposed to do about that? It's completely untrue to say they reform when they have to, this is an isolated case and they don't actually need to do anything about it at all, to say their repuation is in tatters and guilt is coming out one way or another, would be quite an under statement.

The majority have chosen to encourage total exposure to stop anything like it ever happening again. In the past, church reform is bourne of dissatisfaction of those within it, and to an extent as I said before, I do absolutely think that's what needs to happen now, but in a lot of ways it is doing. Every ordinary Catholic in the world wants genuine justice and church officials all over the world are worsening their own scandal to make sure nothing is left covered up this time. No one is one is forcing them to do that and you can oh please till kingdom come, they're doing the right thing.

That you're an atheist, we can hope, has absolutely nothing to do with your outrage about child abuse. Heh, I'm not sure religious people are the claims of moral superiority lot anymore. I'm not sure we're on the same page about 'mocking' though, I'm not talking about you or general forum posters making jokes...that would be totally hypocritical! I mean the moral outrage that so quickly turns into childish insults when someone publically lobbying for arrests wants publicity. Hitchens, Dawkins, anyone publically agreeing with them, are trying to force an official act here, yet they can't resist their own prejudices slipping through. Nothing will happen there, people will be polarised, others will be amused and this will all die down in the end, without effect. At some point you've got to stop pointing out they're men in dresses and start saying there's a fundemental problem with church heirachy and they have to do something about it. To the best of our knowledge the Catholic Church is here to stay, that's a good thing to me, but I do believe they handle situations in general epically badly and that needs to change, because it leaves itself open to things like this as as we have said, power corrupts. So in my opinion it would be both right and practical, to put aside hatred for religion in the media and focus on making sure children are not continuing to be put in danger.


Again though I do think there's a difference between religion and the church, religion does not enslave anyone, people indoctrinate other people, it undermines every free thinking religious person in teh world, to suggest religion and enslavement go hand in hand. As I understood it slavery didn't require religion for the world to allow it and think nothing wrong of it. Nor does it make kings of the pius, some churches have a sort of heirachy, others don't, there are religion in the world that wouldn't even recognise piety. The Catholic Church has more than it's fair share of pompous prats, often given power. It also has a whole lot of brilliant, good people who aren't using the authority of God to force anyone to think anything, they're just precahing what they believe in. No one with or without God is any different to that.


Well yeah, they are reforming because they have to right now. No moves were made to make the churches safer for children until the media got hold of it back in the early 2000s. And even after all that, it's only now that they're saying "report child abuse to the police". It's not as if they've just suddenly become aware of the cover-ups, they were perpetrating the cover-ups themselves. At some point in the future, the anti-gay rhetoric will start to be as shameful as racist rhetoric and they'll have to drop that too and decide that gay marriage maybe isn't so horrifying to God after all. If they don't, they'll find themselves very lonely in the West. Of course, there are plenty of people in the church hierarchy who are doing their best to make public asses of themselves by blaming it all on homosexuality, comparing the media scrutiny to pogroms against the Jews or calling it a witch hunt (head-slappingly ironic, as the church was responsible for both pogroms and witch hunts). I even read that one moron said that part of the problem is all those horny teenagers coming on to the priests. I've got to try and find that one. It's just amazing. It's hard to mock people who mock themselves.

Every ordinary Catholic, I hope, is even more horrified than the average person by these scandals. After all, it is their trust that has been broken and their children that were put at risk. Me being an atheist isn't at all why I'm horrified by the scandals. That was sarcasm. It's just that I'm not supposed to be all that moral since I don't believe in God, and those who claim to be his representatives on earth have hit lows of moral depravity that shock even godless me.

Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of religion? I cannot for the life of me pin it down. :P

I will agree that there are some amazing and wonderful people of all religions. Free thinking? That one I'm not so sure of. Are you thinking freely if you've reached a certain age and you believe in tales of magic? Would you believe in such things if you weren't taught them as a child? Would the Jesus story sound reasonable to anyone who wasn't brought up to believe in such things? I don't know of a single Christian who buys into the concept of Zeus and they all tend to giggle at the Branch Dividians, but aren't they all equally irrational ideas? If Scientology was taught to every child in the next generation, it would take over and be the majority religion and make perfect sense to it's followers. I'll grant you that people are naturally inclined to do a certain amount of magical thinking and that those who do are the norm, but it doesn't exactly strike me as free-thinking. And yes, the same goes for anyone who thinks that the US is "The Best Country in the World", though they know next to nothing about the rest of the world. They believe it because that's what we tell the kids here. God is always on our side. Nationalism is very similar to religion here. It is also antithetical to free-thinking.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:31 am

Delilah wrote:Well yeah, they are reforming because they have to right now. No moves were made to make the churches safer for children until the media got hold of it back in the early 2000s. And even after all that, it's only now that they're saying "report child abuse to the police". It's not as if they've just suddenly become aware of the cover-ups, they were perpetrating the cover-ups themselves. At some point in the future, the anti-gay rhetoric will start to be as shameful as racist rhetoric and they'll have to drop that too and decide that gay marriage maybe isn't so horrifying to God after all. If they don't, they'll find themselves very lonely in the West. Of course, there are plenty of people in the church hierarchy who are doing their best to make public asses of themselves by blaming it all on homosexuality, comparing the media scrutiny to pogroms against the Jews or calling it a witch hunt (head-slappingly ironic, as the church was responsible for both pogroms and witch hunts). I even read that one moron said that part of the problem is all those horny teenagers coming on to the priests. I've got to try and find that one. It's just amazing. It's hard to mock people who mock themselves.


But they're not, they don't actually have to do anything do they! If the church was saying absolutely nothing right now, that would mean one really persistent moron Pope PR guy would stop making ludicrous comparissons, hundreds of bishops and archbishops would stop encouraging victims to come forward and millions of normal Catholics would keep their undoubtedly utterly insensed views to themselves. They're taking a huge risk/ there's no question they handled it terribly and that anyone responsible for abuse or covering it up should be defrocked and put on trial as anyone else would be. The people left though still have jobs to do and I don't think people are being very fair in their analysis of that. If they reform now they're only doing so because they have to, even though they really don't, so what should they do? Not try to impliment changes to ensure it can't happen again? This is church law, not even God-related at this point, changing that is a clear admission of purely human, no god-related error. What more can they do?

When was the church racist? I do honestly hope that the church do come round to gay marriage, but it's hard to see how they could. Their current message is there's nothing wrong with being gay, but that you are only allowed, be you gay straight or inbetween, to have entirely procreative sex. Straight couples aren't allowed to have anal sex either. No double standards there. :lol: They even say that it's perfectly understandable that gay couples will, and while there's no scriptural justification for it, it should not be judged. They would certainly have to be careful, I mean what would stop gay couples saying oh we're allowed now, how about you stick your catholic marriage where the sun don't shine? I think I would and I'm of the opinion they should be allowed to choose who can and can't get married there! I wish we could go back and rethink, theology, history and culture are independent, building a church on theological morality, not culture bias. Until recent years there's been no choice about that because modern culture really hadn't changed much! Now there is an opening and if not change marital laws, the church could update it's inclusiveness. Just say God doesn't care who has sex with who. :P


Every ordinary Catholic, I hope, is even more horrified than the average person by these scandals. After all, it is their trust that has been broken and their children that were put at risk. Me being an atheist isn't at all why I'm horrified by the scandals. That was sarcasm. It's just that I'm not supposed to be all that moral since I don't believe in God, and those who claim to be his representatives on earth have hit lows of moral depravity that shock even godless me.



Of course, but at the same time you can't underestimate the power of polarisation. I am indescribably furious that church officials covered up something so horrific, I have come close to some sort of rage aneurism over idiotic morons saying unhelpful stupid things that are only making it worse. I will not, under any circumstances, condemn a religion or religion itself over the actions of a few, and the more people do that the more time I spend defending it. That's not going to get us anywhere.
Why aren't you supposed to be moral because you don't believe in God? Because some fundamentalists say it? It's all there in the name really, these people do not represent religion on the whole and they certainly don't represent normal, autonomous humans. I understand it's probably not easy being an atheist where you live, but I'm a Catholic on this messageboard, we all have our prejudices. ;)


Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of religion? I cannot for the life of me pin it down. :P


A faith or belief followed religiously. ;)


I will agree that there are some amazing and wonderful people of all religions. Free thinking? That one I'm not so sure of. Are you thinking freely if you've reached a certain age and you believe in tales of magic? Would you believe in such things if you weren't taught them as a child? Would the Jesus story sound reasonable to anyone who wasn't brought up to believe in such things? I don't know of a single Christian who buys into the concept of Zeus and they all tend to giggle at the Branch Dividians, but aren't they all equally irrational ideas? If Scientology was taught to every child in the next generation, it would take over and be the majority religion and make perfect sense to it's followers. I'll grant you that people are naturally inclined to do a certain amount of magical thinking and that those who do are the norm, but it doesn't exactly strike me as free-thinking. And yes, the same goes for anyone who thinks that the US is "The Best Country in the World", though they know next to nothing about the rest of the world. They believe it because that's what we tell the kids here. God is always on our side. Nationalism is very similar to religion here. It is also antithetical to free-thinking.


You're assuming that following a religion means you believe in tales as literal truth, some will, but others won't. Those that will, of course are given those ideas, but they could equally reject them and I have more faith in humans collective brainpower than to say everyone who believes in things like miracles just can't see the possibility of it not being true, I just think they believe it anyway. Nationalism is senseless. Religion isn't always perfect logic to the occasionally utterly unreasonable, but it's not senseless. It has a purpose and reasonable basis to those that let it. I'd challenge any atheist in the world to think I'm less free thinking than they are, lot's will, you might, El certainly thinks it's only a matter of time before I join you. :P You'd be wrong. It's entriely possible my views will change, that I hold them freely will not.
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:16 am

Belle Leisha wrote:When was the church racist? I do honestly hope that the church do come round to gay marriage, but it's hard to see how they could. Their current message is there's nothing wrong with being gay, but that you are only allowed, be you gay straight or inbetween, to have entirely procreative sex. Straight couples aren't allowed to have anal sex either. No double standards there. :lol: They even say that it's perfectly understandable that gay couples will, and while there's no scriptural justification for it, it should not be judged. They would certainly have to be careful, I mean what would stop gay couples saying oh we're allowed now, how about you stick your catholic marriage where the sun don't shine? I think I would and I'm of the opinion they should be allowed to choose who can and can't get married there! I wish we could go back and rethink, theology, history and culture are independent, building a church on theological morality, not culture bias. Until recent years there's been no choice about that because modern culture really hadn't changed much! Now there is an opening and if not change marital laws, the church could update it's inclusiveness. Just say God doesn't care who has sex with who. :P


Da poop:
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that, while homosexuality is not sinful, homosexual acts are.

It opposes gay marriage and, in October, one leading Vatican official described homosexuality as "a deviation, an irregularity, a wound".

In his address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration, the Pope himself described behaviour beyond traditional heterosexual relations as "a destruction of God's work".

He said the Roman Catholic Church had a duty to "protect man from the destruction of himself" and urged respect for the "nature of the human being as man and woman."

The pontiff added: "The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3916804/Pope-says-humanity-needs-saving-from-homosexuality.html

Image

I'll respond more intelligently tomorrow. It's late. :P
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:28 am

But we agree that this whole idea of sex just for procreation is stupid, right?

And it unfairly discriminates against gays, because they by definition cannot have procreative sex with someone whom they actually want to have sex with.

I see two possible ways that they can survive this particular civil rights issue. Either they will change their doctrine further (hey, they don't blatantly kill gays anymore, they just say mean things about them now) or the parishioners will just ignore the rules in even greater numbers until the Pope just stops talking about it altogether in the civilized world.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Delilah wrote:But we agree that this whole idea of sex just for procreation is stupid, right?

And it unfairly discriminates against gays, because they by definition cannot have procreative sex with someone whom they actually want to have sex with.

I see two possible ways that they can survive this particular civil rights issue. Either they will change their doctrine further (hey, they don't blatantly kill gays anymore, they just say mean things about them now) or the parishioners will just ignore the rules in even greater numbers until the Pope just stops talking about it altogether in the civilized world.


Running out of posts here so if we don't agree now we'll just have to wait for the new board, where, inevitably, someone of the atheist variety will start a 'Jesus is MY homeboy' thread and I will be given no choice but to argue. :P

It is my personal view that sex being for one purpose only is not a very Godly idea, so yes, I think it's stupid as in I can't see why an almighty God would not have foreseen sex for pleasure and diversity of orientation, I also think if indeed it was a test of self restraint, why is there a way out of it for a small number of heterosexual people.

It's very harsh towards gay people because it means unless they choose to ignore their orientations and have procreative sex they're not allowed any sex at all, whereas as long as staright couple only do so for children within a Catholic marriage there is a way. The reason I don't think it's descrimination is that it's not like an enforced rule, the example of my parents is one I keep bringing up but despite their practising heterosexual Catholics status they couldn't get married in the church and are now "living in sin", which means they can't go to communion and very little else. A gay couple would be in example the same position. Both will come down to the judgement of a higher power in the end by church law and I don't think either have anything to fear. ;)

I agree they could alter the doctrine, I just think they need to be careful. They need to start my making is very, very clear that discrimination or prejudice is not for the church and not excusable for members of it. To that end, a stop to the trail of hyper conservative Pope's would be necessary. Once the removal of theoretical discrimination was in place it would be far less of a leap to move to, if not marriage, some kind of church blessing for divorced, mixed religion or gay couples. It would take a change in what the marriage sacrement is for to offer marriage to everyone and not just their current Straight Catholic virgin family planners... which I don't really think would be quite right. It should be inclusive, but it shouldn't be completely changed and I'm not sure any couples in the can't-marry-here category would want it to. I know my parents wouldn't.

One other thing, stop bending the rules because you have a priest shortage! Married family having Anglican priests converting is utter bull. :P
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:24 am

We aren't gonna agree, but there is no doubt that a homeboy Jesus thread will show up soon enough and we can start all over. :P

If there has to be religion, I at least wish that you could write the rules. Old men don't seem to do so well at it.
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:28 am

Delilah wrote:

If there has to be religion, I at least wish that you could write the rules.


That's not limited to religion. :P

Seeya on the new board. ;)
Image


I'm a restless kinda gal, there's No Turning Back Now

http://www.phoenixfirefoundation.com
User avatar
Belle Leisha
I Want To Break Free
I Want To Break Free
 
Posts: 11778
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Never a FarCry from here...

Re: Enough is enough

Postby Delilah » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:34 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Delilah wrote:

If there has to be religion, I at least wish that you could write the rules.


That's not limited to religion. :P

Seeya on the new board. ;)


Well, as we mostly agree on other subjects, that wouldn't be the worst thing either.

See ya. ;)
User avatar
Delilah
I'm a pretty c**t
 
Posts: 17251
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:13 pm
Location: USA

Re: Enough is enough

Postby lord of all darkness. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:10 am

Delilah wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Delilah wrote:

If there has to be religion, I at least wish that you could write the rules.


That's not limited to religion. :P

Seeya on the new board. ;)


Well, as we mostly agree on other subjects, that wouldn't be the worst thing either.

See ya. ;)


Get a room you 2 will ya!


Spoiler! :
Please! :biggrin:
lord of all darkness.
Don't Stop Me Now
Don't Stop Me Now
 
Posts: 3967
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:27 am

Previous

Return to IS THIS THE WORLD WE CREATED?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron