Presidents of the United States

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Kes
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Re: Presidents of the United States

Post by Kes »

Whatever the case, whatever were the motivations to attack Afghanistan in the first place, we're back there now. A little bit wiser, maybe, but that wisdom is no consolation..

I think the damage was done, when Trump negotiated with the Taliban, and metaphorically pulled the pin on the grenade, not the point when the grenade exploded.

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Leigh Burne
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Re: Presidents of the United States

Post by Leigh Burne »

Innuendoes wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:56 amBiden announced the decision and refuses to back down. He insists he's going to stay with this decision no matter what the outcome will be for the soldiers and the citizens.
Weren't you the one always saying Trump was right for wanting to pull out of the Middle East?

As for my two cents, Afghan was always going to be another Vietnam. It's like no one learned from the last however many times someone's tried to get involved there.

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the milkman
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Re: Presidents of the United States

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... eturn/amp/

You are all crazy and misinformed!!! Today is the day Trump is getting reinstated. Only 3.5 hours left for that to happen. I believe! If the My Pillow guy says it’s going to happen it’s going to happen.

I firmly believe that Q is a teenager fucking with idiots.

Starman
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Re: Presidents of the United States

Post by Starman »

There seems to be a strong feeling that the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan cancels out any gains that were made by US forces over the last 20 years.

I suppose that all depends on what you think the war was for.

If it was for strategic geopolitical purposes, perhaps with oil as the underlying commodity, then yes, the last 20 years have all been undone in just a few days.

But the two other motivations are left essentially intact.

If the war was retaliation against the Taliban for supporting Al Qaeda and protecting Osama Bin Laden, the important endpoint is that there hasn’t been a repeat of 9/11 in the last 20 years. Since then, the USA has improved its homeland security significantly, and the terrorism landscape has completely changed. Every life saved as a result of the diminished power of Al Qaeda is a life that might not have been saved if not for the 20 years of US presence in Afghanistan.

If the war was about bringing ‘freedom’ to the people of Afghanistan, that mission was accomplished for 20 years and can never be undone. A country is ultimately just a way of organising a large society of people. The ongoing success of that country shouldn’t be seen as more important than the lives of the individuals that live within it, and any suggestion otherwise usually comes from a place of extreme patriotism, often with religious undertones. An entire generation of people lived through this war. A child born at the very start of the war is now an adult. Given that the return of the Taliban will likely mean a return of oppression of women and homosexuals, and public executions, it seems reasonable to say that for 20 years a large number of Afghans enjoyed a level of security and freedom that they would not otherwise have had. So that’s a win as well.

Clearly what’s happening right now is a disaster for Afghanistan but I don’t think it automatically undoes the work that has been done there over the last 20 years.

And I say that as someone who was essentially opposed to the war.

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Kes
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Re: Presidents of the United States

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All good points.

Over history, Afghanistan is one of those places where if they aren't fighting someone else, they're fighting each other. In fact, the only thing that seems to bring them together, is when they have a common enemy to wage war on.

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Lord of all darkness
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Re: Presidents of the United States

Post by Lord of all darkness »

The horrific scenes at the airport are heartbreaking. Clinging to an airliner or being tortured by the Taliban..

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Innuendoes
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Re: Presidents of the United States

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Lord of all darkness wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:38 am The horrific scenes at the airport are heartbreaking. Clinging to an airliner or being tortured by the Taliban..
It's horrible, isn't it? Those poor people - all of them. I am so ashamed of this country right now. ☹️

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Kes
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Re: Presidents of the United States

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I'd think a Rolls-Royce Trent could do a far better job of making 100lb of mincemeat, than the Taliban can, and you'd successfully stop 200 people getting to safety.

It's not just likely that stowing away in an undercarriage bay will asphyxiate you, and then deep freeze you like a leg of lamb from Iceland. It's almost definite that it will. You can't survive much above 10,000 ft without oxygen, and you can't survive long at -60c, without a decent ski-suit.

I think I'd rather play hide and seek with a few thousand Islamic fundamentalists.

In favour of those who believe Western influence was just delaying the inevitable, Afghanistan's Western trained forces outnumbered the Taliban 3-1, had modern weapons, AND an air force. What they lacked was any degree of self belief, trust in their comrades or leaders, and committment to defend what they had built for 20 years. They might want a free state, just not as much as the Taliban want a deeply religious one.

Be proud of the fact that 2,500 Americans, and 500 Brits, died trying to give them the "chance" of freedom.

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Re: Presidents of the United States

Post by Innuendoes »

Kes wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:55 pm I'd think a Rolls-Royce Trent could do a far better job of making 100lb of mincemeat, than the Taliban can, and you'd successfully stop 200 people getting to safety.

It's not just likely that stowing away in an undercarriage bay will asphyxiate you, and then deep freeze you like a leg of lamb from Iceland. It's almost definite that it will. You can't survive much above 10,000 ft without oxygen, and you can't survive long at -60c, without a decent ski-suit.

I think I'd rather play hide and seek with a few thousand Islamic fundamentalists.

In favour of those who believe Western influence was just delaying the inevitable, Afghanistan's Western trained forces outnumbered the Taliban 3-1, had modern weapons, AND an air force. What they lacked was any degree of self belief, trust in their comrades or leaders, and committment to defend what they had built for 20 years. They might want a free state, just not as much as the Taliban want a deeply religious one.

Be proud of the fact that 2,500 Americans, and 500 Brits, died trying to give them the "chance" of freedom.
Well, yes, at least to part of this post. I was looking at photos of so many people, squeezing into those open spaces on the sides of that C-17 transport and running along side it as if they were maybe hoping to get on as well. And I thought, what on earth are you thinking? You can't possibly expect to hang onto the side of a plane like that and be transported to where? The USA? Impossible! I know they were terrified and I know they were trying to save their lives but it was sure death, what they were doing, there.

I am pretty sure that wasn't the only C-17 or other types of transports, either, and I wonder how many there actually were and if all of them were stormed like that with people trying to get on. All those people, trying to escape the Taliban! And now, the Taliban is there and everything will revert to back to what it was, 20 years ago. 😰

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Kes
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Re: Presidents of the United States

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The thing is, you could have 50 Marines stood round that plane, trying to shoot anyone who got within 10 yards of it, and they'd have been swamped with people within seconds.

Rational thinking went out of the window, the second they managed to get on the tarmac. No tickets, no passports. No idea where they want to go, and how they're going to survive, if, and when they get there.

The money America had been spending on Afghanistan, they'll be wise to start spending on home defence, and stopping the miniscule minority of potential terrorists, who enter the country posing as mutton dressed as lamb.

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