The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Serious discussion about the band known as QUEEN.

Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:41 pm

Kes wrote:I thought it was in an interview


Which one?
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Kes » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:02 pm

I'll come back to that, if I ever come across it again.

Life's too short to go trawling through bloody hours of Brian droning on for something like that!
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Kes » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:06 pm

From Queenvault...

"It is speculated that there is a Roy Thomas Baker produced version of The Night Comes Down. Like all of the De Lane Lea demos, it would be assumed that the band decided to re-record this with Roy. The rumor is the band didn't agree with Baker on the direction he was taking the song (most notably the Trident Studio drum sound)."
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:32 pm

Kes wrote:From Queenvault...

"It is speculated that there is a Roy Thomas Baker produced version of The Night Comes Down. Like all of the De Lane Lea demos, it would be assumed that the band decided to re-record this with Roy. The rumor is the band didn't agree with Baker on the direction he was taking the song (most notably the Trident Studio drum sound)."


So basically, no evidence whatsoever that they re-recorded TNCD at Trident. Just speculations, assumptions and rumours based on the fact the band did re-record the other four songs.
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Kes » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:51 am

Oh dear. It's like that God argument.

No evidence for, and curiously enough, no evidence against either. Which is right? More to the point, who fucking cares who's right?

So, because we don't actually know whether they did or didn't have another go at recording it, that will be the accurate deduction, a "don't know", and not a "probably" or "probably not".
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:16 pm

Kes wrote:who fucking cares who's right?


It's not about *who* is right, but about *what* is right.

Kes wrote:that will be the accurate deduction, a "don't know", and not a "probably" or "probably not".


Exactly. Hence:

sebastian wrote:There may be no rejected version of that. It's likely that they added the 1971 version because it was the only one they ever recorded. They had time to re-record the other four (and then re-re-record KYA a month or so before its release as single) but perhaps not that one.
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Kes » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:25 pm

sebastian wrote:
Kes wrote:who fucking cares who's right?


It's not about *who* is right, but about *what* is right.

Kes wrote:that will be the accurate deduction, a "don't know", and not a "probably" or "probably not".


Exactly. Hence:

sebastian wrote:There may be no rejected version of that. It's likely that they added the 1971 version because it was the only one they ever recorded. They had time to re-record the other four (and then re-re-record KYA a month or so before its release as single) but perhaps not that one.


I know you can't ever trust Wikipedia, but the someone who wrote this, seems to have a decent handle on speculation.

"The Night Comes Down"
May wrote this song shortly after the band's formation in 1970, following the break-up of Smile. It was first recorded at De Lane Lea Studios in December 1971, when the band were hired to test the studio's new equipment in exchange for being allowed to record proper demos for their attempt to find a record company. The agreement was mutually beneficial and Queen took full advantage of the state-of-the-art equipment to put five of their tracks to tape.

In 1972, Trident Studios signed Queen to a recording contract which limited them to only down-time studio access (when paying artists were not recording) and they began working with Roy Thomas Baker. He and Studio owners/management Norman and Barry Sheffield insisted on re-recording the five De Lane Lea demos. A new studio version of "The Night Comes Down" was recorded, but in the end, it was decided that the De Lane Lea version was still superior, and this was the version which appears on the debut album. The unused Roy Thomas Baker-produced version remains unreleased and has not surfaced even on bootlegs.

With the release of the original De Lane Lea demos as bonus tracks in 2011, the difference in the mixing of "The Night Comes Down" is quite noticeable when compared to the original LP and digital remasters. The demo is roughly the same mix that appeared on the album except that there is a distinct difference in the drum sound.

The song follows what would become trademark Brian May themes such as coming-of-age, nostalgia over the loss of childhood to the past, and the difficulties of life as an adult. There is also what could be an ambiguous reference to "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", in the lyric: "When I was young it came to me; And I could see the sun breaking; Lucy was high and so was I; Dazzling, holding the world inside."May is admittedly a Beatles fan and has commented in numerous interviews on their impact on him.


As we both agree, so far, no-one has come out with conclusive proof either way, but being fair, about 80% of what you believe lacks conclusive proof, and you run with the best info and deductions you have
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:51 pm

Kes wrote:I know you can't ever trust Wikipedia


Exactly!

Random Person on Wikipedia wrote:In 1972, Trident Studios signed Queen to a recording contract which limited them to only down-time studio access (when paying artists were not recording) and they began working with Roy Thomas Baker. He and Studio owners/management Norman and Barry Sheffield insisted on re-recording the five De Lane Lea demos. A new studio version of "The Night Comes Down" was recorded, but in the end, it was decided that the De Lane Lea version was still superior, and this was the version which appears on the debut album. The unused Roy Thomas Baker-produced version remains unreleased and has not surfaced even on bootlegs.


Nicely written but completely devoid of any evidence. Moreover, Queen began working with John Anthony, not Roy. John Anthony was the chief producer of that album, Roy only took over when John came down with mono. The idea of 'TNCD' having been re-recorded is, so far, a conclusion based on the fact they re-recorded the other four demos, and the idea they rejected it is a conclusion based on the fact they used the 1971 version on the album. To sum up: someone added two plus two and got five, and from that flawed conclusion a myth was born. Then someone lacking evidence but having a way with words wrote it on Wiki and voila! The legend's even more widespread... which doesn't change the fact there's no evidence whatsoever to support that hypothesis.

Kes wrote:As we both agree, so far, no-one has come out with conclusive proof either way, but being fair, about 80% of what you believe lacks conclusive proof, and you run with the best info and deductions you have


More like 100% of what we believe lacks conclusive proof. However, there's a huge massive enormous difference between, say, knowing that they re-recorded 'Great King Rat' (where we've got loads of evidence pointing that way) and claiming TNCD received the same treatment, based on ... well, nothing!
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Kes » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:00 pm

Too small for me to read, unfortunately, but have a go at this...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KgH ... wn&f=false

I get the impression it's written by Patrick Lemieux and Adam Unger, both names I've heard about before.

Might be something in it, might not. I won't pretend I have any better answers than they do.

Either way, I'll keep an open mind and be equally receptive to both the scenarios that a re-recorded version might exist, as that one doesn't exist. And that's the point I'm making, I'm not biased either way until I actually hear it for myself. I certainly won't be arguing a case against if someone chooses to believe. :lookround:

FFS, over half the world believes in a deity of some sorts with no actual proof there is one.

If, and when I get to meet Greg Brooks or Brian again, I'll put it on my list of questions to waste my time with.
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:14 pm

Kes wrote:I'll keep an open mind and be equally receptive to both the scenarios that a re-recorded version might exist, as that one doesn't exist.


Yeah, exactly.

There's nothing to strongly support it does, there's nothing to strongly support it doesn't.

So, while I wouldn't claim there's not a Trident version (I don't know, and probably will never know), I personally think it's safer not to list it as re-recorded at Trident since there's nothing to seriously suggest it was.
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Guru » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:37 pm

Isn't it stated in As It Began?

I certainly recall Brian saying that they could never recapture the feel of the demo.
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:03 am

I think quite a few stories have been merged:

[*] The whole 'we were never able to re-capture the feel of the demo' thing was about 'Keep Yourself Alive.'
[*] The whole 'they were dissatisfied with Roy's mix and decided not to release it' thing was about 'Mad the Swine.'
[*] As It Began isn't flawless. I seem to remember they even forgot to mention Jesus had been demo'd.

The story of a hypothetical Trident recording of 'Night Comes Down' has been told to death, but it doesn't make it true.

Having said that, of course I'm not flawless either, so I could still be wrong, obviously. For the record, I'm not saying they definitely didn't re-record it, I'm just saying there's no evidence they have.

And, also for the record, just the fact that 'maybe they did re-record it at Trident, maybe they didn't' doesn't mean each possibility's got a 50-50 chance of being true. Logic and probability don't really work that way.
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Kes » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:58 am

sebastian wrote:
Kes wrote:I'll keep an open mind and be equally receptive to both the scenarios that a re-recorded version might exist, as that one doesn't exist.


Yeah, exactly.

There's nothing to strongly support it does, there's nothing to strongly support it doesn't.

So, while I wouldn't claim there's not a Trident version (I don't know, and probably will never know), I personally think it's safer not to list it as re-recorded at Trident since there's nothing to seriously suggest it was.


In your favour here, a little bit, anyway, is the fact they "remixed" it for the bonus tracks on the 2011 remasters. Had they had a Trident version, and it was in any way releasable, a certain amount of logic would suggest they would have had a go, and remixed THAT.
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby sebastian » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:26 pm

Certainly. Unless, of course, they:

* Had a Trident version, but only released the five Music Centre ones for the sake of thematic cohesion.
* Had a Trident version, but decided to keep it for later (that's the case with hundreds of rarities anyway).
* Recorded a Trident version but somehow lost it.

While I'm not denying the possibility that any of those could've happened, my point is that there's no evidence to accurately point us in any direction at the moment. The stories that circulate on-line (problems with the drum sound, the mix or Brian feeling the 1971 version was superior) have been mis-attributed.
John hated Hot Space. Frederick's favourite singer was not Paul Rodgers. Roger did not compose 'Innuendo.' Witness testimonies are often inaccurate. Scotland's not in England. 'Bo Rhap' hasn't got 180 voices.
 
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Re: The Night Comes Down - first song by Queen ?

Postby Guru » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:45 pm

sebastian wrote:I think quite a few stories have been merged:

[*] The whole 'we were never able to re-capture the feel of the demo' thing was about 'Keep Yourself Alive.'
[*] The whole 'they were dissatisfied with Roy's mix and decided not to release it' thing was about 'Mad the Swine.'
[*] As It Began isn't flawless. I seem to remember they even forgot to mention Jesus had been demo'd.


Arse. You're right.
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