I've had it up to here with religion!

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:14 am

YAFF wrote:Yes I strongly believe in some kind of "God"

I believe the Bible is a useful resource of information including, of course, some biographical details about Jesus of Nazareth and how Christianity succeeded against the odds.... but I am light years away from claiming the Bible is infallible and "written by God". When I am talking to Bible-believing Christians (like my friend Julymorning) I am able to have a discussion about the Bible due to a couple decades worth of research and experience belonging to several sects.

.....but I don't follow any sect of Christendom and am not closed minded about other Non-Judeo Christian belief systems or even none at all (I've been an atheist, an agnostic, a Deist and a Theist at one time in my life). I try to reconcile my beliefs based on where the evidence leads. For example I can not possibly believe in a Young Earth because of scientific knowledge that the earth is billions of years old. If Science effectively disproves something I believe I think it' would be foolish to hold onto to such a belief.

On the other hand I find the evidence of a "god" of some sort existing much much more probable than not. Like I've said before I believed God has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The key word is "reasonable" and also what exactly "God" is. Should new science disprove a beginning of all/any universes, and that nature can blindly produce something as complex as the genetic code, that the universal constants that govern are universe aren't really all that fine-tuned, etc....as it stands now. Based on what we know..God most probably does exist.


The proof you think you've come up with for God seems to me to be based largely on logic. I disagree with that logic, but that's not my point. My point is this - why should the universe obey logic, a system invented by humans? Plenty of things in universe appear 'illogical' but only because we're applying human logic to a system far more complex than we can imagine. A logical proof for God really, really isn't good enough. To be beyond reasonable doubt, the evidence needs to be physical.

Incidentally can any lawyers here tell us if a logical argument alone would be enough to prove something beyond reasonable doubt in court? I suspect the answer is no. It might defy all logic for a stranger to kill a woman, and the most logical explanation would be that her cuckolded husband did it, but surely that alone wouldn't secure a conviction.

As for fine-tuning - you're assuming that just because constants have values, that those values could be different. Is there any evidence that the gravitational constant, the weak nuclear force, the strong nuclear force or electromagnetism could be anything other than what they are? I agree that IF they were different we might not be here, but COULD they be? Until there's evidence that fine-tuning is even possible, there's no reason to believe in a divine fine-tuner/knob-twiddler.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby julymorning » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:46 am

You referred to me as "your friend".

Thank you.

:)
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This is probably as good as it gets.

      
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby fairydandy » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:13 am

bluescritic wrote:
what's wrong with believing in the Bible?


Well, it's a book written by humans thousands of years ago and it has very little basis in fact whatsoever. Apart from that, there is nothing wrong in believing in it. Believe away. Some people believe in Santa Claus...it happens, the world is a strange place.

I don't know what people want to gain out of believing in it though? It's almost as if they fear something will happen if they don't? If it was any other historical book, people would put it down as being a quaint old book, written at a time when we knew no better. :?
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:12 pm

Elessar wrote:
The proof you think you've come up with for God seems to me to be based largely on logic. I disagree with that logic, but that's not my point. My point is this - why should the universe obey logic, a system invented by humans? Plenty of things in universe appear 'illogical' but only because we're applying human logic to a system far more complex than we can imagine. A logical proof for God really, really isn't good enough. To be beyond reasonable doubt, the evidence needs to be physical.


I use circumstantial evidence galore (largely physical) along with the cosmological, teleological and ontological arguments. I attempt to use separate inductive, deductive and abductive reasoning to "shore" up loopholes. To present a case. You have severely simplified my argument into an easy to tip strawman. Yes logic is important in helping a human understand or interpret evidence but I accept our logic is not complete. After all I have said there is one Unconditioned Reality that has always existed. We cannot fully grasp that since we have no experience with such a concept. Infinity. However, it is FACT not logic that everything that has begun to exist has conditions that must exist for it's existence. The physical evidence supports a beginning of any realistic universe. You cannot name one example that contradicts that other than now fringe theories.

Elessar wrote:Incidentally can any lawyers here tell us if a logical argument alone would be enough to prove something beyond reasonable doubt in court? I suspect the answer is no. It might defy all logic for a stranger to kill a woman, and the most logical explanation would be that her cuckolded husband did it, but surely that alone wouldn't secure a conviction.


You misrepresent and mis-characterize my argument. You either don't read what I write, can't comprehend it or deliberately fashion the argument into a strawman- one of your favorite devices. This lawyer uses the copious circumstantial evidence to prove his case beyond any reasonable doubt (not any doubt). We get convictions all the time on far less circumstantial evidence that we have. Of course we use logic in our decisions. Not completely. Inference to the best explanation is the best we can hope for most of the time. A combination of inductive, deductive and abductive reasoning are used in my full argument for god but we will never get to that because debates stall too easily due to red herrings and strawmen rebuttals.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby fairydandy » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:57 pm

YAFF wrote:A combination of inductive, deductive and abductive reasoning are used in my full argument for god but we will never get to that because debates stall too easily due to red herrings and strawmen rebuttals.


...and the fact that you take absolutely ages to say nothing at all. :roll: Seriously YAFF, you don't really say anything, just the same tripe about Unconditional Reality over and over. Put up or shut up...and preferably the latter. :) You cannot prove that god exists...no, stop that thought right there, no you can't. ...and don't even think of asking me to prove that he doesn't because that's plain idiotic. Happy New Year. :)
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:21 pm

fairydandy wrote:
YAFF wrote:A combination of inductive, deductive and abductive reasoning are used in my full argument for god but we will never get to that because debates stall too easily due to red herrings and strawmen rebuttals.


...and the fact that you take absolutely ages to say nothing at all. :roll: Seriously YAFF, you don't really say anything, just the same tripe about Unconditional Reality over and over. Put up or shut up...and preferably the latter. :) You cannot prove that god exists...no, stop that thought right there, no you can't. ...and don't even think of asking me to prove that he doesn't because that's plain idiotic. Happy New Year. :)


Bite me! ;)

and may the one and only Unconditioned Reality forgive your many many sins. :P
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby fairydandy » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:10 pm

YAFF wrote:
Bite me! ;)

and may the one and only Unconditioned Reality forgive your many many sins. :P


:evil: :P
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:48 am

You're obsessed with this strawman thing. I'm actually a big fan of logic and am frequently frustrated by people making formal fallacies, but to just harp on all day about it suggests you've run out of ideas. In fact that itself is a fallacy - the fallacy fallacy.

I don't actually agree that anything that exists had conditions to allow it to exist. The word 'condition' tends to imply 'variable'. We don't know that the constants of the universe could be variable. We don't know that. Your logic assumes that the constants pre-date the universe and allowed it to come into being. There's no reason why the start of the universe itself didn't bring with it those conditions.
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Elessar » Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:22 pm

He's always had a bit of a strokey-face. I wonder if this has cancelled it out?

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... aland-tour
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:13 pm

Tarkus wrote:http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a67jree_700b_v1.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:


That's funny... :P
 
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