I've had it up to here with religion!

If you are religious and you are offended by the title of this topic go away now! I will not apologize for it!

A few random thoughts:

- "Religion is the opiate of the masses." ~ Karl Marx
- The purpose of religion throughout history has been to control the masses.
- Okay, the above is not really fair as sometimes some religions tend to open your mind to philosophical matters, but in most cases (and for mediocre minds) it has the opposite effect!
- The USA, which is a pluralistic society, has the words "In God We Trust" on its currency; government officials (and court witnesses) still swear on the Bible; the last words of the Oath of Office are "So help me God!" - even though the government insists on separation of church and state.
- In fact, I seem to recall that several years ago a senator (or another government official, I don't remember) in the US refused to swear on the Bible and asked for the Koran instead - this caused a massive public debate, when it should've been a non-issue to begin with.
- My country, which has been a parliamentary democracy for the past 20 years and also strives to be a pluralistic society, nevertheless has a Constitution, which states that "Bulgaria is traditionally a Christian country"... in this day and age!
- In the past few days there's been a debate in the media about religious education in Bulgarian schools... again - in this day and age!
- I'd like to refer you to this post, which is as humorous as it is insightful.
- The conflict in the Middle East, which in the words of a fellow QOLer "could make WWII a joke" is mostly about religion... so is the potential conflict between India and Pakistan.
- Barack Obama was raised a Muslim, but converted to Christianity before he was 30. Do you think he would have been elected President if he was still a Muslim?
- It's disturbing that many people claim they are Christians, but ignore the historical facts, such as the First Council of Nicaea where the Christianity legend was, for all intents and purposes, fabricated. Christianity exists in its current form, not because of Divine plan, but for purely political reasons.

...and so on...

* * *

A dear friend of mine passed away last week. He got a heart attack while he was driving. There was a service at a Church in my hometown... You can imagine how sad it was, I don't have to describe all the morbid details.

Like most Christians in Bulgaria he was Greek Orthodox Christian. I'm not sure how familiar you guys are with the rituals of the Greek Orthodox Church, but... well, it's a really depressing affair. To top it all of, the priests actually sing - why, I couldn't possibly tell you (or care for that matter). The man's family was crying - his daughter, his wife, his mother, his brother and his sister-in-law... Instead of offering some kind of advice or comfort, I overheard the priest talking to someone before the service began about the gruesome details of how my friend died and how the car hit a truck. Then the service began and it felt like he wasn't there to do God's work - he was there to earn his paycheck... like he was in a rush to get out of there.

I mean - you watch movies, you see these wise old priests, talking to the family of the deceased, providing comfort in this difficult time... But that's just in the movies, isn't it?

And it's not like I don't believe in God. I do. I believe that he (or she!) is up there, looking over us... But I don't believe that he (or she!) is so vain that all of these rituals, candles, icons and all the other crap, associated with religion, are necessary to please him (or her).

Seriously, is it logical or even sane, to pay a Man so that you can worship a God?

V.

Do you believe in God or do you 'hope' there is a God? I think that's all belief is really, just hope. Personally, I am just living this life without a thought in the world as to what comes next. I don't think there is anything after this, just as there wasn't anything before it. Billions and billions of years of darkness I expect, so I try to enjoy the certainty of this life as much as I can. That's not to say that all of my life is fun, far, far from it...but I am thankful that I got pulled out of the darkness and into the light, albeit briefly!

Sorry about your friend V. Religion works for some people, it doesn't for others.

Do you believe in God or do you 'hope' there is a God? I think that's all belief is really, just hope. Personally, I am just living this life without a thought in the world as to what comes next. I don't think there is anything after this, just as there wasn't anything before it. Billions and billions of years of darkness I expect, so I try to enjoy the certainty of this life as much as I can. That's not to say that all of my life is fun, far, far from it...but I am thankful that I got pulled out of the darkness and into the light, albeit briefly!

Believe, hope, know... Whatever you want to call it. I feel that there is a God. I don't know if God is a he or a she, or even if God has a gender. I feel it in my heart that there is a God somewhere (or perhaps everywhere). But I don't need some asshole priest telling me that there is a God and if I don't go to Church God will send me to Hell...

V.

Believe, hope, know... Whatever you want to call it. I feel that there is a God. I don't know if God is a he or a she, or even if God has a gender. I feel it in my heart that there is a God somewhere (or perhaps everywhere). But I don't need some asshole priest telling me that there is a God and if I don't go to Church God will send me to Hell...

V.

Well, we can rule out 'know' because you don't know that and nor does anyone.

In the beginning was the word and the word was 'hope'.

Well, we can rule out 'know' because you don't know that and nor does anyone.

In the beginning was the word and the word was 'hope'.

Seriously? You're gonna nitpick a single word in this topic?

V.

Well, we can rule out 'know' because you don't know that and nor does anyone.

In the beginning was the word and the word was 'hope'.

Seriously? You're gonna nitpick a single word in this topic?

V.

Well, it's quite a big word! Hey, listen, I'm with you all of the way on this topic,

I have more to say. Stay tuned.

And keep talking - I like what you guys have to say on the subject.

V.

Seriously, is it logical or even sane, to pay a Man so that you can worship a God?

V.

It's quite a ruse, isn't it? Pure genius, "'God' wants you to give us money." And it has worked for thousands of years.

I also understand about the whole funeral thing. My brother and I ended up walkif out of my grandmother's crematorium service (not the funeral itself) because the priest just rabbited on about god and jesus, and didn't say a single personal thing about my grandma.

Sorry for your loss Vlad

I call Protestant funerals "Infomercials for Jesus".

It's accurate enough.

Sorry about your friend V. Religion works for some people, it doesn't for others.

That's all well and good, but I think it's terribly outdated to have god on the dollars and in the national anthems of these supposed democratic, multicultural, forward-thinking, free-willing countries

Out-dated, maybe, I believe church and state should always be kept entirely separate, but that of things that worry me i the world, the term God being on dollar bill or in national anthems, it's absolutely nowhere.

That's all well and good, but I think it's terribly outdated to have god on the dollars and in the national anthems of these supposed democratic, multicultural, forward-thinking, free-willing countries

How about this then: Back in the communist era, the Bulgarian National Anthem had an extra verse, which mentioned "Moscow"... The capital of another country mentioned in a country's National Anthem? It was a disgrace. One of the few instances when I have been ashamed to be Bulgarian.....

It's just as shameful, or probably even more so, to make a mention of any religion's deity in the national symbols of a country that prides itself for being a pluralistic society. And I'm not only talking about the US here - I mentioned the Bulgarian Constitution and that disturbing text: "Traditionally Christian"?!? What does that even mean?!

One of the things that has often bothered me about Christianity is that toddlers are baptised before they can even walk or speak, let alone comprehend. Christianity is imposing itself on human beings that have no concept of religion and faith. In that respect I have a certain admiration for Judaism as the Bar Mitzvah is performed at an age when the young person understands what is happening to them. And there is no obligation to go through the ritual until you feel that you are ready. For one of the oldest religions on the planet, this is very progressive way of doing things indeed.

V.

No, just that personally I've 'had it up to here' with this whole religion/anti-religion thing, it no longer follows any line of reason on either side 90% of the time, it's simply down to personally prejudices again on both sides and if I never see another religion thread in my life I'll be thrilled, but I won't hold my breath.

There are so many more important issues that what is on money or in anthems, some relating to religion, some not. Take the British anthem, for example, is the worrying part the word 'God' or the fact it's about saving our non-specific monarchy, when we have a democratically elected Government? For me it's the latter, and again, still very far down the list of worrying things in the world, I mean if you had the power now to fix one ill in the world, would that be it?

It's a strange thing thoguh, it's generally considered naivety to agree with Karl Marx about anything at all, other than that one quote, generally taken out of context. Marx opposed all things which focused on differences between people that wasn't the divide between the rich and the poor. He also disliked feminism, anti-racism movements and anyone earning any more than anyone else. Not quite such a level of agreement with him on those things!

Don't worry about it. I don't mean to have any kind of attitude, I think I just burned out on this subject a while ago. I didn't say it was very important to you, just that I don't care about it. I do, in the sense that again, I think church and state need to be kept separate and those things represent them not being. I don't think they're up there with other issues which are very rarely discussed, I guess they lack the divisive factor.

One final statement I'd like to make on this topic as it's quite boring...

Fundamental difference between the religious and the atheists.....Religious people believe. Atheists know.

I would disagree. I just know that I don't know and neither does anyone else.