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Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby julymorning » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:38 am

I just love it when people jump in with sarcastic comments and questions without keeping up with the entire premise that was discussed.

It certainly isn't pertinent to my question to Yaff, and once again someone is trying to drag a discussion about vegan lifestyle into a belief in theology argument. I'm not biting.
.It is my uppermost hope that even histories' genius's lost their minds as they aged. I'd hate to think that I really am an idiot. sjm
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:49 am

Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:Pretty poor form of God to condemn thousands of years worth of humans to living lives of sin, and humans only being able to leave their sinful meat-eating behind when industrial agriculture grows to the point where balanced, meat-free diets are possible.


Well, Jesus fed people fish so that stops that BS, doesn't it? ;-)


Yes but he magicked that fish up, didn't he? So is that sort of like artificial meat? Was it ever living?
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Innuendoes » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:05 am

Elessar wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:Pretty poor form of God to condemn thousands of years worth of humans to living lives of sin, and humans only being able to leave their sinful meat-eating behind when industrial agriculture grows to the point where balanced, meat-free diets are possible.


Well, Jesus fed people fish so that stops that BS, doesn't it? ;-)


Yes but he magicked that fish up, didn't he? So is that sort of like artificial meat? Was it ever living?


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I'm lost in the night
The icy wind is howling out your name
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The fire is growing dimmer with the wind
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby julymorning » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:28 am

Where IS Yaff?
.It is my uppermost hope that even histories' genius's lost their minds as they aged. I'd hate to think that I really am an idiot. sjm
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:36 pm

julymorning wrote:Yaff, I have some questions just for discussion, not accusation or anything. I am curious if you have dogs or cats and if you feed them strictly vegan. We've already established that animals as well as humans did not eat animal flesh in the beginning.


That is if we take the Bible at it's word so for the sake of argument (whether the Bible is a reliable source is not the issue so I won't bother with the Bible-bashing baiters here). Tarkus covered this quite nicely but, yes, some animals evolved differently and are in need of taurine and/or carnine which is either produced by one's own body or must be attained from the consumption of another body. I live with two wonderful cats who became part of my family prior to my becoming a vegan. I wish it wasn't necessary but I have to feed them what they need. Everything cannot be the way I wanted. It is no longer a perfect world (post-Eden, post-flood). Really my whole point of veganism is that "if it is not necessary to inflict suffering and death on other sentient beings then to do so is unethical and cruel- selfish". Humans do not NEED to exploit other animals in any fashion to be perfectly healthy unless it is a matter of self defense or if certain humans are in the rare 21st century situation that hunting animals is their only means of survival. Otherwise it just morally wrong logically (if you consider causing unnecessary suffering and death a bad thing like any sane person).

**footnote: there are some vegan cat foods I'm looking into that contain synthetic taurine but I don't know enough about them yet.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:40 pm

julymorning wrote:I just love it when people jump in with sarcastic comments and questions without keeping up with the entire premise that was discussed.

It certainly isn't pertinent to my question to Yaff, and once again someone is trying to drag a discussion about vegan lifestyle into a belief in theology argument. I'm not biting.


I stopped biting awhile ago. Just ignore them. If they pose an on point question I will feel obliged but really some just like to take potshots and when you try to answer them they just wriggle out f it and pose another stupid question. Boring.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:42 pm

Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:Pretty poor form of God to condemn thousands of years worth of humans to living lives of sin, and humans only being able to leave their sinful meat-eating behind when industrial agriculture grows to the point where balanced, meat-free diets are possible.


Well, Jesus fed people fish so that stops that BS, doesn't it? ;-)


No, not really, Jesus multiplied what they had on hand. Perhaps if they had just bread he would have just multiplied bread. Again, Inny, this is after the "fall of man" and God's original purpose is the main issue at this point in the thread.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:04 am

YAFF wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:Pretty poor form of God to condemn thousands of years worth of humans to living lives of sin, and humans only being able to leave their sinful meat-eating behind when industrial agriculture grows to the point where balanced, meat-free diets are possible.


Well, Jesus fed people fish so that stops that BS, doesn't it? ;-)


No, not really, Jesus multiplied what they had on hand. Perhaps if they had just bread he would have just multiplied bread. Again, Inny, this is after the "fall of man" and God's original purpose is the main issue at this point in the thread.


That story really annoys me because people choose to go for the supernatural interpretation, ie that Jesus magically multiplied bread and fish, instead of a version that in my opinion has a far better moral to it, ie that maybe a third of people brought food with them, and Jesus encouraged them to share it amongst themselves. There's far more for mankind to learn from that story than from a story of a magic man magicking up some magic fish. But we go with that one because for some reason that's the version we want.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby julymorning » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:59 pm

Yaff, forgive me for biting, but the irony in the above post can't be ignored.

It's funny to me, and I mean I do have to laugh, when people insist on proof that there is a God, a benevolent God. You see mankind has never changed, they always want to see, hear, feel or touch something to believe in it.

Jesus, as the son of God, was given the power to accomplish deeds a normal, mortal man couldn't do. So many lessons for that crowd in what he did, but for the benefit of my argument here, it provided the physical proof those witnessing needed in order to believe.

They started with a few fishes and bread loaves in a basket, and whatever he did enabled enough pieces to be broken off that everyone got something to eat with leftovers remaining.

He took pity on them because they were willing to sit there and listen to him so long without having meal provisions.
And you criticize.
Guess you had to be there.
.It is my uppermost hope that even histories' genius's lost their minds as they aged. I'd hate to think that I really am an idiot. sjm
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:12 pm

Okay, so we have a scenario in which a large crowd of people are fed by a small amount of food, with some input by the event's headline speaker. Which of the following explanations do you think offers the most to the development of humanity?

1) He was magic and used magic to make magic fish and magic bread

2) He was an inspirational, mortal man who was able to encourage people to share and be kind to one another, using words rather than magic

It seems to me that the non-magic explanation is in fact far more appealing, but as it offers no proof of the divine, it's seen as far too boring and so a supernatural element has to be thrown in.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:28 pm

julymorning wrote:
It's funny to me, and I mean I do have to laugh, when people insist on proof that there is a God, a benevolent God.


Laugh away. In the real world, the rest of us just wait for the next 'Paris', whilst the fanatical amongst you struggle with it all. Allahu Akbar and all that.

Even the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't believe in God these days (you have to read between the lines, but that's what he meant). :roll:
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby julymorning » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:34 pm

Elessar wrote:Okay, so we have a scenario in which a large crowd of people are fed by a small amount of food, with some input by the event's headline speaker. Which of the following explanations do you think offers the most to the development of humanity?

1) He was magic and used magic to make magic fish and magic bread

2) He was an inspirational, mortal man who was able to encourage people to share and be kind to one another, using words rather than magic

It seems to me that the non-magic explanation is in fact far more appealing, but as it offers no proof of the divine, it's seen as far too boring and so a supernatural element has to be thrown in.


Neither.

You are picking your own words and let me assure you, even your second scenario is off the mark.

It was not magic, the people there that experienced/witnessed it did not think of it as a magic trick that any man could learn and repeat. They knew that this man, Jesus, had to be more than a mortal man to do the things he was doing.

He did not do it to encourage them to share and be kind to each other. You must know and respect the person first, before you make the effort to emulate him. This was during the time he had been performing numerous miracles in order to teach them faith in his words, in the promises of his Father's kingdom. Like you, and fd, and millions of others you need physical proof of something that goes against your mindset.
.It is my uppermost hope that even histories' genius's lost their minds as they aged. I'd hate to think that I really am an idiot. sjm
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:39 pm

julymorning wrote:
It was not magic, the people there that experienced/witnessed it did not think of it as a magic trick that any man could learn and repeat. They knew that this man, Jesus, had to be more than a mortal man to do the things he was doing.


Source? Were you there perhaps?
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:42 pm

julymorning wrote:Like you, and fd, and millions of others you need physical proof of something that goes against your mindset.


What's wrong with that? It's better than being taught something as a child and believing it as an adult, without any proof whatsoever.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby julymorning » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:57 am

fairydandy wrote:
julymorning wrote:Like you, and fd, and millions of others you need physical proof of something that goes against your mindset.


What's wrong with that? It's better than being taught something as a child and believing it as an adult, without any proof whatsoever.




Oh Jeeze, fd, keep up with the program! Are you that thick headed that you can't see yourself picking out part of what I said for the sheer purpose of having something to throw in my face????

There is nothing wrong with that, it was the explanation (trying to be as simple as I could) for whyJesus was performing that and other miracles.


And no I do not claim to have been there. I do not need to show you proof or anyone else that insists on it. You would n't believe any proof I'd have to offer you anyway, now would you?

Tell me something. What do you know about the Spanish Inquisition? Tell me some things that you know about it.


JLP, please feel free to lift this over to the religion thread. I let them draw me out here, so here's where I expect them watching.
.It is my uppermost hope that even histories' genius's lost their minds as they aged. I'd hate to think that I really am an idiot. sjm
 
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