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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:16 am

Has it really taken all of this talking to establish that there was a beginning? Really? I think most people already accept that there was a beginning and most agree that undoubtedly 'something' caused it. Obviously, I will go with the big-bang, but I have no idea at all what caused the big-bang. What most normal thinking people will do is imagine what 'could' have caused it...so yeah, I get that, it could have been a 'power' or a 'thing' that some might describe as god.

Here's the rub though...most people think of god as a person, probably male, looking down on us all, knowing our every move etc, etc, blah, blah yawn. Most people believe that only because they were bought up as children to believe that (with the added threat of 'hell' if they didn't and eternal life if they did)...but there isn't one single solitary shred of evidence for such a god, nothing, never has been, never will be. If a user on a Queen message board thinks they have absolute, cast iron evidence or proof of such a being, then we are on the verge of the greatest discovery in human history...and maybe the world needs to point itself here right now.

Yes, there almost certainly was 'something' that caused the big bang. I hope I live long enough for the next theory to come along and explain it, but I sure as hell won't live my life believing in something that promises me an afterlife. Of course this lie is taught to impressionable young minds as they are forming. I find that abhorrent and I would class it as child abuse.

If we discovered immortality tomorrow and gave it to everyone....the entire discussion would still continue as to what started the universe, but not many people would bother with the god argument anymore, not in the sense that we have it now, that's for sure, because there would be no point in it. It's the very height of selfishness to want to believe in god, just to get eternal life.

YAFF, please define what you think 'god' is? What do you think of, what form is it, what....etc.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby action » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:42 pm

fairydandy wrote:Has it really taken all of this talking to establish that there was a beginning? Really? I think most people already accept that there was a beginning and most agree that undoubtedly 'something' caused it. Obviously, I will go with the big-bang, but I have no idea at all what caused the big-bang. What most normal thinking people will do is imagine what 'could' have caused it...so yeah, I get that, it could have been a 'power' or a 'thing' that some might describe as god.

Here's the rub though...most people think of god as a person, probably male, looking down on us all, knowing our every move etc, etc, blah, blah yawn. Most people believe that only because they were bought up as children to believe that (with the added threat of 'hell' if they didn't and eternal life if they did)...but there isn't one single solitary shred of evidence for such a god, nothing, never has been, never will be. If a user on a Queen message board thinks they have absolute, cast iron evidence or proof of such a being, then we are on the verge of the greatest discovery in human history...and maybe the world needs to point itself here right now.

Yes, there almost certainly was 'something' that caused the big bang. I hope I live long enough for the next theory to come along and explain it, but I sure as hell won't live my life believing in something that promises me an afterlife. Of course this lie is taught to impressionable young minds as they are forming. I find that abhorrent and I would class it as child abuse.

If we discovered immortality tomorrow and gave it to everyone....the entire discussion would still continue as to what started the universe, but not many people would bother with the god argument anymore, not in the sense that we have it now, that's for sure, because there would be no point in it. It's the very height of selfishness to want to believe in god, just to get eternal life.

YAFF, please define what you think 'god' is? What do you think of, what form is it, what....etc.


agreed.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:27 pm

Elessar wrote:Both sides need to accept that there is no proof of God's existence OR non-existence. That should be a given.


Disagree. Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "proof". You and others seem to be suggesting certain "kinds" of proof are the only proofs. Yet you already believe a majority of things based on definitions of "proofs" you claim to reject.

Full Definition of PROOF

1 a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2 obsolete : experience
3 : something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4 archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried; especially : unyielding hardness
5 : evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal

Elessar. Do you believe life evolved from nonliving matter and that man has evolved from abiogenesis? Do you believe in dark matter and black holes? Do you believe homo sapiens evolved from Australopithecus?

Elessar wrote: There's no point coming up with linguistic proofs of God ( because that's all they are) that define him into existence. No side is likely to ever come up with absolute proof of his existence of non-existence, or even of one or the other beyond reasonable doubt.


This is simply your opinion and NOTHING else. They are not merely "linguistic proofs" and I have not tried to define god into existence. I have not used the ontological argument. And I have used the scientific method to form hypothesis. Inferences to the best explanation is legit. My whole argument rests on certain scientific facts. Granted the argument involves analogy and an appeal to logic but please point out a flaw in that logic. Otherwise I must assume you accept that 1) the universe and time had a beginning 2) everything that began to exist has a cause (conditioned reality is better) for it's existence 3) an infinite regression is impossible

Elessar wrote:So then it simply boils down to which side of the fence you want to sit on. For some, that's a question of what they'd prefer the truth to be. The idea of an afterlife and a beneficent presence watching over us and presiding over football matches is quite appealing and I'm sure that's why religion is very popular.


Like you said for "some" but I don't give much weight to preference. However one's willingness to accept probabilities and to follow the evidence to where it points can be hindered by preference. Both sides are guilty.

Elessar wrote:For others, it simply becomes a question of probability. I think it's pretty unlikely that there's a God, so I call myself agnostic but live as though there's no God. Some weigh up the probabilities differently and think there probably is a God, but can't be sure. Some may use the fundamentally flawed Pascal's Wager to support their decision.


It is more rational and reasonable to go with probabilities than not. Would you agree? You think it's improbable but I'd like to know what you base that on? So far I haven't seen you write anything that isn't a regurgitation of Richard Dawkins' weak musings.

Elessar wrote:But this linguistic nonsense about there being logical proof of God is utter rubbish, and it's not surprising that it's an argument that isn't made very often, because everyone can see straight through it.


It is made quite often. I'm surprised you would say such an ignorant thing. You are also mis-characterizing it. You call it "rubbish" but you haven't shown why that is. Simply labeling it as "linguistic nonsense about there being logical proof" is completely useless to this discussion. Attack what I actually wrote and SHOW why it is "nonsense". Otherwise kindly shut the ferk up.
Last edited by YAFF on Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby action » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:33 pm

i reject darwin's evolution theory though. creationism is what made all this.

no way evolution could explain why, in such short time, such complex lifeforms were formed. that's a mathematical certainty.

there was some sort of "guidance", that's for sure. "god" made a software program when he created the universe and let it all unfold in reality (hardware)
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:35 pm

fairydandy wrote:Has it really taken all of this talking to establish that there was a beginning? Really? I think most people already accept that there was a beginning and most agree that undoubtedly 'something' caused it. Obviously, I will go with the big-bang, but I have no idea at all what caused the big-bang. What most normal thinking people will do is imagine what 'could' have caused it...so yeah, I get that, it could have been a 'power' or a 'thing' that some might describe as god.


Well this is all I've been arguing. So we all agree with the above that there was a beginning to the universe and time and that "something" caused it?

fairydandy wrote:Here's the rub though...most people think of god as a person, probably male, looking down on us all, knowing our every move etc, etc, blah, blah yawn.


I haven't done so so why build a strawman?

fairydandy wrote:...but there isn't one single solitary shred of evidence for such a god, nothing, never has been, never will be.


LOL. Prove it fd.

fairydandy wrote:Yes, there almost certainly was 'something' that caused the big bang. I hope I live long enough for the next theory to come along and explain it, but I sure as hell won't live my life believing in something that promises me an afterlife. Of course this lie is taught to impressionable young minds as they are forming. I find that abhorrent and I would class it as child abuse.


Yeah, whatever. Let's stick with that "something" that caused the big bang, shall we? You keep smuggling religious depictions of that "something" when there is no need

fairydandy wrote:YAFF, please define what you think 'god' is? What do you think of, what form is it, what....etc.


I will get to that eventually but I made the mistake of mentioning the Unconditioned Reality was god waaaaaaay too soon and before it is necessary.

So are we all in agreement that there must be an Unconditoned Reality? You may call it "something" if you wish.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:36 pm

YAFF wrote:
fairydandy wrote:...but there isn't one single solitary shred of evidence for such a god, nothing, never has been, never will be.


LOL. Prove it fd.


Err, no. I don't need to prove anything. We can go around and around in circles for ever on this one, but let's save some time. The onus of proof lies with you, not with me. If you don't claim there is a god, I don't need to say that there is no proof of one. You're wasting my time...now I might not be intelligent, like yourself, but I sure as hell will not engage in this trivia with you. I will not be answering this point again.

Now, stop talking nonsense and give us the proof. I don't want the dictionary proof of the word, I want proof of his/her/it's existence, as you have claimed that he/she/it exists.

Proof, let's have it.

So far, we have spent ages and ages agreeing that there was a beginning (like anyone disagreed with that anyway?). Great, now lets have the rest of the story, quickly please and in dumbed down language, because my boredom threshold is really low.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Capt. Den Ronson » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:50 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Now, stop talking nonsense and give us the proof. I don't want the dictionary proof of the word, I want proof of his/her/it's existence, as you have claimed that he/she/it exists.

Proof, let's have it.

So far, we have spent ages and ages agreeing that there was a beginning (like anyone disagreed with that anyway?). Great, now lets have the rest of the story, quickly please and in dumbed down language, because my boredom threshold is really low.


:P
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby action » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:57 pm

the anus of proof, clearly lies with Yaff
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby The__KingOfRhye » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:32 pm

action wrote:i reject darwin's evolution theory though. creationism is what made all this.

no way evolution could explain why, in such short time, such complex lifeforms were formed. that's a mathematical certainty.

there was some sort of "guidance", that's for sure. "god" made a software program when he created the universe and let it all unfold in reality (hardware)


Short time? Earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago, the first life appeared a billion years after that, and the first modern humans, oh, about another 999,800,000 years, give or take a few, after that. I don't call that a short time. (unless you believe in that 'young-earth' hooey....)
 
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Would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?

      
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby action » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:08 pm

The__KingOfRhye wrote:
action wrote:i reject darwin's evolution theory though. creationism is what made all this.

no way evolution could explain why, in such short time, such complex lifeforms were formed. that's a mathematical certainty.

there was some sort of "guidance", that's for sure. "god" made a software program when he created the universe and let it all unfold in reality (hardware)


Short time? Earth was formed 4.5 billion years ago, the first life appeared a billion years after that, and the first modern humans, oh, about another 999,800,000 years, give or take a few, after that. I don't call that a short time. (unless you believe in that 'young-earth' hooey....)


in terms of how DNA can mutate, the results of mutations on living species, the use of mutations and the subsequent selection, yeah that is a very short amount of time. for nature to "create" a spinal cord, all by its own, it involves very complex chemical processes which have to be tested on the field. according to the darwin theory, all these creations by chemical processes needed to go through some field testing, in order for the strongest to survive. this is possible IN THEORY, but it would need an exponential amount of time, in fact it would need as much time as the lifespan of the universe itself, maybe even more.

evolution would make more sense if nature got a helping hand, by a creator guiding the evolution process.

where are all the fossils of failed spinal chords? where are the humans with only one leg? one arm? 3 fingers? there arent any. they had two legs, two arms, ten fingers to begin with. are you expecting me to believe nature got it all right at its first shot? are you fucking kidding me?
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby The__KingOfRhye » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:25 pm

action wrote:
where are all the fossils of failed spinal chords? where are the humans with only one leg? one arm? 3 fingers? there arent any. they had two legs, two arms, ten fingers to begin with. are you expecting me to believe nature got it all right at its first shot? are you fucking kidding me?


Like I said in my last post, in the case of humans, we're not the 'first shot', not at all. There were millions and millions of years of evolution before any humans appeared. Single-celled organisms evolving to more complex organisms and so on and so on, evolving eventually to some ape-like something-or-other, through a few more species, to what we are today.
 
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Would it save you a lot of time if I just gave up and went mad now?

      
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:50 pm

I believe in Adam and Eve...that makes far more sense that the theory of evolution. Whatever was Darwin thinking of?

Yeah, just put two fully formed adult humans on the planet...ok, they were never babies, they had no parents, but hey, don't ruin the story...they were made by the creator...yeah, that one that no one has ever seen. I'm a believer baby, it all makes soooo much sense!

Unconditioned reality rocks!!
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Tarkus » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:52 pm

Can a mod take all the religious debate and put it in a separate thread, please? This is supposed to be about diet and lifestyle, not whose invisible sky buddy is the best.

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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:57 pm

Tarkus wrote:Can a mod take all the religious debate and put it in a separate thread, please? This is supposed to be about diet and lifestyle, not whose invisible sky buddy is the best.


Can we label the new thread. 'Are you 'avin a laff, YAFF?
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Tarkus » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:07 pm

:lol:
 
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