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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:35 pm

Personally I'm counting down the days (55) to the end of 2015 so that this thread can die.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Tarkus » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:40 pm

There'll be 2016- the sequel. :P
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:48 pm

Tarkus wrote:There'll be 2016- the sequel. :P



There will be a sequel. If only to annoy Elessar.

Anyway mods please move all the god-related posts of late to the religion thread so we can continue there.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:52 pm

fairydandy wrote:
YAFF wrote:
fairydandy wrote:...but there isn't one single solitary shred of evidence for such a god, nothing, never has been, never will be.


LOL. Prove it fd.


Err, no. I don't need to prove anything. We can go around and around in circles for ever on this one, but let's save some time. The onus of proof lies with you, not with me. If you don't claim there is a god, I don't need to say that there is no proof of one. You're wasting my time...now I might not be intelligent, like yourself, but I sure as hell will not engage in this trivia with you. I will not be answering this point again.

Now, stop talking nonsense and give us the proof. I don't want the dictionary proof of the word, I want proof of his/her/it's existence, as you have claimed that he/she/it exists.

Proof, let's have it.

So far, we have spent ages and ages agreeing that there was a beginning (like anyone disagreed with that anyway?). Great, now lets have the rest of the story, quickly please and in dumbed down language, because my boredom threshold is really low.


You did make the claim that there "is no evidence and never will be". You need to prove "there never will be". I haven't asked you to disprove god so clean up your verbal diarrhea about that. You consistently make definitive claims. You can't possibly say "there never will be". Don't be a hypocrite.

Now that we all agree there is a beginning I will continue after the mods move the posts
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:06 pm

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:Both sides need to accept that there is no proof of God's existence OR non-existence. That should be a given.


Disagree. Apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "proof". You and others seem to be suggesting certain "kinds" of proof are the only proofs. Yet you already believe a majority of things based on definitions of "proofs" you claim to reject.

Full Definition of PROOF

1 a : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact
b : the process or an instance of establishing the validity of a statement especially by derivation from other statements in accordance with principles of reasoning
2 obsolete : experience
3 : something that induces certainty or establishes validity
4 archaic : the quality or state of having been tested or tried; especially : unyielding hardness
5 : evidence operating to determine the finding or judgment of a tribunal


Well I can't deny that your 'proof' compels acceptance by your mind (definition 1a), but I hardly think that's a good standard to aspire to.
1b is presumably the definition you're aiming for - you address this later and so shall I.
2 doesn't really mean much in this context.
3: What you have said by no means induces certainty.
4: God's existence has been neither tested nor tried
5: I doubt any tribunal would rule that there is definitely a god.

Elessar wrote:Elessar. Do you believe life evolved from nonliving matter and that man has evolved from abiogenesis? Do you believe in dark matter and black holes? Do you believe homo sapiens evolved from Australopithecus?


I believe that others know far more about those subjects than I do, and that I'm not really qualified to have much of an opinion. I think it's likely that inorganic material produced organic material and that eventually lead to what we now call life, yes. We have demonstrable mechanisms by which big atoms can come from little atoms, and molecules can come from atoms, so it would be surprising if all of a sudden a new explanation were required for some even bigger molecules to have come from smaller molecules. Chemistry and physics managed the rest by itself so it seems unlikely that a god was required to create biology.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote: There's no point coming up with linguistic proofs of God ( because that's all they are) that define him into existence. No side is likely to ever come up with absolute proof of his existence of non-existence, or even of one or the other beyond reasonable doubt.


This is simply your opinion and NOTHING else. They are not merely "linguistic proofs" and I have not tried to define god into existence. I have not used the ontological argument. And I have used the scientific method to form hypothesis. Inferences to the best explanation is legit. My whole argument rests on certain scientific facts. Granted the argument involves analogy and an appeal to logic but please point out a flaw in that logic. Otherwise I must assume you accept that 1) the universe and time had a beginning 2) everything that began to exist has a cause (conditioned reality is better) for it's existence 3) an infinite regression is impossible


I don't think any of those three caveats are DEFINITELY true. Even if they're very likely, say 90%, the chances of all three being true is only 73%, and it's then a pretty big leap to rename your Unchained Melody as 'God'.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:So then it simply boils down to which side of the fence you want to sit on. For some, that's a question of what they'd prefer the truth to be. The idea of an afterlife and a beneficent presence watching over us and presiding over football matches is quite appealing and I'm sure that's why religion is very popular.


Like you said for "some" but I don't give much weight to preference. However one's willingness to accept probabilities and to follow the evidence to where it points can be hindered by preference. Both sides are guilty.


Well, I'd quite like there to be a god, so for me, to conclude that there probably isn't one means rejections my own preferences. Given that elsewhere you talk about Jesus and the Bible, I doubt the same is true of you.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:For others, it simply becomes a question of probability. I think it's pretty unlikely that there's a God, so I call myself agnostic but live as though there's no God. Some weigh up the probabilities differently and think there probably is a God, but can't be sure. Some may use the fundamentally flawed Pascal's Wager to support their decision.


It is more rational and reasonable to go with probabilities than not. Would you agree? You think it's improbable but I'd like to know what you base that on? So far I haven't seen you write anything that isn't a regurgitation of Richard Dawkins' weak musings.


I've only read one book by the widely acclaimed Oxbridge professor Richard Dawkins, and it certainly wasn't The God Delusion. I think it's improbable becauae there is no evidence, and it is a supernatural belief, up there with unicorns on Mars. Yes, there might be, and I certainly can't disprove them, but in the absence of any actual evidence (Righteous Brothers aside), I'll assume there probably aren't any.

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:But this linguistic nonsense about there being logical proof of God is utter rubbish, and it's not surprising that it's an argument that isn't made very often, because everyone can see straight through it.


It is made quite often. I'm surprised you would say such an ignorant thing. You are also mis-characterizing it. You call it "rubbish" but you haven't shown why that is. Simply labeling it as "linguistic nonsense about there being logical proof" is completely useless to this discussion. Attack what I actually wrote and SHOW why it is "nonsense". Otherwise kindly shut the ferk up.


If you google "unconditioned reality" you get a load of Buddhist stuff, which is a slightly different context to yours, and you get some pretty eccentric religious websites, often with sentences or even paragraphs that look eerily familiar to me having read them on QOL already. It's not a mainstream argument. That doesn't make it invalid of course, but the more outspoken god-botherers don't use it which makes me suspect they know it's pretty unconvincing.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:08 pm

YAFF wrote:Now that we all agree there is a beginning I will continue after the mods move the posts


No one ever disagreed that there was a beginning! All of this talk and we still don't know where fucking god is? How long is this going to take? Let's get straight to the punchline shall we? Where is god? Surely we can wrap this up in the next 10 mins? Tell me where he is, please.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:10 pm

YAFF wrote:
fairydandy wrote:
YAFF wrote:
LOL. Prove it fd.


Err, no. I don't need to prove anything. We can go around and around in circles for ever on this one, but let's save some time. The onus of proof lies with you, not with me. If you don't claim there is a god, I don't need to say that there is no proof of one. You're wasting my time...now I might not be intelligent, like yourself, but I sure as hell will not engage in this trivia with you. I will not be answering this point again.

Now, stop talking nonsense and give us the proof. I don't want the dictionary proof of the word, I want proof of his/her/it's existence, as you have claimed that he/she/it exists.

Proof, let's have it.

So far, we have spent ages and ages agreeing that there was a beginning (like anyone disagreed with that anyway?). Great, now lets have the rest of the story, quickly please and in dumbed down language, because my boredom threshold is really low.


You did make the claim that there "is no evidence and never will be". You need to prove "there never will be". I haven't asked you to disprove god so clean up your verbal diarrhea about that. You consistently make definitive claims. You can't possibly say "there never will be". Don't be a hypocrite.

Now that we all agree there is a beginning I will continue after the mods move the posts


He is right on that to be fair, fd. You can't know that there'll never be proof. You can just feel smug when we all get to our 90s and there still isn't any, because let's face it, there won't be and deep down we all know it.

I don't accept that there was definitely a beginning. 'Beginning' is a concept associated with space and time. Before either existed it is a meaningless concept.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:14 pm

Elessar wrote:He is right on that to be fair, fd. You can't know that there'll never be proof.


I agree. I was wrong to say that there will never be proof. I tried cobbling together an answer, couldn't really find one, so just ignored him. :P

Unchained melody... :lol:
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby fairydandy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:25 pm

I have a feeling we have done all of this before and have been for ever. The Big Bang, the Big Crunch...rinse, repeat.

Just think, in a few billion years, we all get to do this again! :lol:
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:33 pm

Did we learn nothing from Reg Presley if not that there's no beginning, and there'll be no end?
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Innuendoes » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:40 pm

Why do you all persist in posting about God or the lack of in this thread instead of the I Hate Religion thread or one of the many other anti - religion threads in this section and leave this thread for animal rights?
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:52 pm

Elessar wrote:Well I can't deny that your 'proof' compels acceptance by your mind (definition 1a), but I hardly think that's a good standard to aspire to.
1b is presumably the definition you're aiming for - you address this later and so shall I.
5: I doubt any tribunal would rule that there is definitely a god.


The tribunal example works because as I said "god can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt", which naturally in our minds infers a trial by jury. From the beginning I have been consistent on this. We humans make decisions on the kinds of proof I have offered ALL THE TIME. A preponderance of the evidence. Circumstantial evidence. I took some accepted scientific facts and used logic and reasoning to present my case (actually only the beginning of it but folks like fd tend to disrail the conversation with trivialities)

Elessar wrote:I believe that others know far more about those subjects than I do, and that I'm not really qualified to have much of an opinion. I think it's likely that inorganic material produced organic material and that eventually lead to what we now call life, yes. We have demonstrable mechanisms by which big atoms can come from little atoms, and molecules can come from atoms, so it would be surprising if all of a sudden a new explanation were required for some even bigger molecules to have come from smaller molecules. Chemistry and physics managed the rest by itself so it seems unlikely that a god was required to create biology.


Big atoms coming from little atoms is a poor analogy. It isn't apt. The real issue is genetic information and the genetic code. You think it's "likely that inorganic material produced material..". Atoms becoming larger has low information count like crystals while the simplest living organism has dense information. How does one go from zero to low information content to highly SPECIFIED content? You seem to be quite ignorant to the incredibly improbable odds of this occurring, odds often provided by materialists/atheists. Despite failure after failure of producing anything other than some amino acids and the complete lack of evidence for a primordial soup you still call it "likely". What can you say about a person that bets on ridiculously poor odds? We have a word for such a person. I suspect you aren't as well-read on abiogenesis as I assumed.


Elessar wrote:I don't think any of those three caveats are DEFINITELY true. Even if they're very likely, say 90%, the chances of all three being true is only 73%, and it's then a pretty big leap to rename your Unchained Melody as 'God'.


90%? 73% Really? Show your work. Otherwise those remarks are about as useful has male tits.

Elessar wrote:Well, I'd quite like there to be a god, so for me, to conclude that there probably isn't one means rejections my own preferences. Given that elsewhere you talk about Jesus and the Bible, I doubt the same is true of you.


Unlike you I am able to engage in topics purely on their own merits whether I personally believe in them or not. You don't know what I believe about Jesus and the Bible. I certainly know more than you do on these things but your smuggling this into this conversation is just you committing the same logical fallacies over and over again.


Elessar wrote:I've only read one book by the widely acclaimed Oxbridge professor Richard Dawkins, and it certainly wasn't The God Delusion. I think it's improbable becauae there is no evidence, and it is a supernatural belief, up there with unicorns on Mars. Yes, there might be, and I certainly can't disprove them, but in the absence of any actual evidence (Righteous Brothers aside), I'll assume there probably aren't any.


There is, in fact, evidence no matter how many times you and fd wave your hands that there isn't. There's a wealth of evidence that shows an unconditioned reality is probable. Your reference to unicorns shows you committing yet another logical fallacy or three: 1. reductio ad absurdum 2. weak analogy and the rhetorical fallacy "appeal to ridicule"
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby The__KingOfRhye » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:54 pm

Innuendoes wrote:Why do you all persist in posting about God or the lack of in this thread instead of the I Hate Religion thread or one of the many other anti - religion threads in this section and leave this thread for animal rights?


Huh? I Hate Religion thread? Must have missed that one....
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:54 pm

fairydandy wrote:I have a feeling we have done all of this before and have been for ever. The Big Bang, the Big Crunch...rinse, repeat.

Just think, in a few billion years, we all get to do this again! :lol:


There is no evidence for a big crunch and plenty evidence against it. It is not a popular theory any longer.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:56 pm

Innuendoes wrote:Why do you all persist in posting about God or the lack of in this thread instead of the I Hate Religion thread or one of the many other anti - religion threads in this section and leave this thread for animal rights?


Because we just need the mods to move it on over. I agree with you.
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