I've had it up to here with religion!

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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:35 pm

:lol:

Well yeah, that's your view on beliefs I think are completely wrong, but that's not an issue, people's beliefs, including their beliefs about beliefs, are personal and don't need to effect anyone else. Each to their own.
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:47 pm

Belle Leisha wrote::lol:

Well yeah, that's your view on beliefs I think are completely wrong, but that's not an issue, people's beliefs, including their beliefs about beliefs, are personal and don't need to effect anyone else. Each to their own.


Can't see why you keep discussing it then really.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:52 pm

Delilah wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I don't like the term atheism either, but most outspoken atheists seem more than a little bit fond of it.


Not really. It's such a maligned term that it does me no good to use it anyway. In my case, it's just amuses to me to identify with what I was told as a child was the most evilest thing ever ever, because as evil as those millions of Satanists that we all were surrounded by were, at least they believed in God. Boy, you just wouldn't believe how many Satanists there were in the South when I was growing up. They were just everywhere, under every rock and in every shadow. I never actually met any, but never doubt that they were all over the place slaughtering goats and babies. Nothing on the news about it, but you just had to believe that they were there.

Some of the most "militantly" atheistic people I've met were former fundamentalists. It does make a difference when you've been right in the middle of the craziest forms of religion. It affects one's viewpoint. It is amazing what otherwise sane and rational people will believe.


I don't actually think of you when I say most outspoken atheists. :P But yeah, it has become a bit weird, this "As an atheist..." thing is both hilarious and worrying. A guy on another forum said to me "As an atheist I hate all religion". Excuse me? :lol: I'm sure both of those things are true, bit of an insult to people who just don't believe in God though! I keep reading similar things "As an atheist..." There is no ending to that sentence that makes sense other than "...I don't believe in a god." Anything else, is a separate view isn't it, there might be correlations, but it certainly would be making a religious following of atheism to think it has other characteristics! I don't think this is a pattern of atheists, btw, I think the asshole contingency of every group has currently latched onto the vocal atheism trend and is giving you guys a bad name. ;)

The thing is that atheist is not a maligned term here, like, at all, I didn't even become aware there were people who identified themselves as such until a few years ago. I thought it was just an opposite term, not that people actually took it on because they happened not to have beliefs. I understand you feeling that way, but English people who go on about how Christians think they're more moral than everybody else or that atheist = immorality, gets right on my nerves. A few years ago I was talking to someone about the difference between hunting dolphins and farming tuna (none, to me) and at the same time having a religion debate in another thread (naturally! :P) someone randomly jumped in from that thread, to the hunting debate with "you're Christian, no wonder you're so self righteous". :lol: Yeah fair enough I pretty much assume I'm right about animals, I'll own that, but correct me if I'm wrong, the Bible doesn't exactly support vegetarianism! :P Who was thinking they were the more moral or better person there? For that reason it is especially annoying that it's "atheism" apparently attacking religion, rather than people who are anti-religion, subtle difference, because the Pope's comments when he was here will have been gold dust to that small minority. More conflict than is ever needed is created by people's ridiculous need to massively generalise. I did it then with "most atheists", that's not true, it's not most, it's as always, a vocal minority.
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Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:53 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote::lol:

Well yeah, that's your view on beliefs I think are completely wrong, but that's not an issue, people's beliefs, including their beliefs about beliefs, are personal and don't need to effect anyone else. Each to their own.


Can't see why you keep discussing it then really.


I don't, as a rule, I discussion religion.
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Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Elessar » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:53 pm

fairydandy wrote: I'm also right most of the time...oops, there I go again.


It's a good feeling, isn't it?
The short-range vindications are nice, but what's particularly great is when a long-range opinion or prediction that many people doubted is eventually proven to be correct. Always happens eventually :P
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:56 pm

How can you two both be right most of the time? While you tend to avoid direct conflict you also rarely agree about any issues. :P
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:07 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:How can you two both be right most of the time? While you tend to avoid direct conflict you also rarely agree about any issues. :P


I always listen to El though, because he uses perfect logic. Ok, he's young and stupid sometimes, but I'm old and stupid. :P
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby fairydandy » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:08 pm

Elessar wrote:
fairydandy wrote: I'm also right most of the time...oops, there I go again.


It's a good feeling, isn't it?
The short-range vindications are nice, but what's particularly great is when a long-range opinion or prediction that many people doubted is eventually proven to be correct. Always happens eventually :P


It is. ;)
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:22 pm

Cliquey bitches.
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby bigV » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:28 am

Belle Leisha wrote:Cliquey bitches.


:lol:

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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby ELQ » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:56 am

How entertaining!
I've been an atheist since I was 7 yrs old. Around the same time I discovered there was no Santa Claus.
 
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby bigV » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:13 pm

Here's an interesting dialogue from "The West Wing" (best TV series ever!) that's relevant to the subject:

Vinick: "One Christmas my wife gave me a very old edition of the King James Bible — 17th century. It was a real find for a book collector. It was a thrill just to hold it. Then I read it."
Bartlet: "You can't take it literally."
Vinick: "Yeah, that's what my priest friends kept telling me. But the more I read it, the less I could believe. I could not believe there was a God that said the penalty for working on the Sabbath was death. I couldn't believe there was a God who said the penalty for adultery was death."
Bartlet: "I'm more of a New Testament man, myself."
Vinick: "I couldn't believe there was a God who had no penalty for slavery. The Bible has no problem with slavery at all."


The discussion is between sitting President Josiah Bartlet, who was born and raised as a Catholic and Presidential candidate (from the opposing party) Arnold Vinick, who explains why he stopped going to church. The episode is called "In God We Trust" and if you're interested in this topic I recommend you track it down. It'll be worth your while.

Here's another good quote from the episode:

Vinick: "I don't see how we can have a separation of church and state in this government if you have to pass a religious test to get in this government. And I want to warn everyone in the press and all the voters out there, if you demand expressions of religious faith from politicians, you are just begging to be lied to. They won't all lie to you but a lot of them will. And it will be the easiest lie they ever had to tell to get your votes. So, every day until the end of this campaign, I'll answer any question anyone has on government, But if you have a question on religion, please go to church."


Vinick, talking to reporters.

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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby action » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:10 pm

when are the dumb people stop going to church?
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby action » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:19 pm

paedophily in church:

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... Versteylen

One of Flanders' best-known priests Father Luc Versteylen is accused of having abused teenagers in a retreat centre in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. The Antwerp judicial authorities have confirmed that allegations have been made against Father Versteylen

Father Luc Versteylen is one of the founding father of the Flemish green movement.

The menment that he founded was called Agelev, an abbreviation for Anders Gaan Leven (Go and live differently) it later became a political party.

The party changed its name to Groen! in 2003 after having suffered a crushing defeat in the federal elections.

Father Versteylen also set up a retreat centre in the village of Viersel in Antwerp province.

It was an administrator from the not for profit group that runs the centre that reported “improper acts having been perpetrated by Father Versteylen on several boys".

The abuse is alleged to have taken place between 1985 and 1995.

It was brought to the centre’s attention by an anonymous tip off.

There are alleged to be at least two victims.

However, there may way be other cases that still haven’t come to light.

All of the victims are reported to be between 15 and 20 years of age.

Judicial investigation
Meanwhile, 83-year-old Versteylen has resigned from the board of the not for profit organisation that runs the centre.

He is reported to have been put under pressure to resign by other board members. Mr Versteylen has also written a letter that will be given to all members of the centre's Board of Administrators.

The Board will meet on Saturday evening to discuss the issue.

Father Versteylen has refused to comment any further.

The Flemish green party says that it was not aware of the allegations.

A party spokesman was keen to stress that Father Versteylen no longer plays any role within the Flemish Green Party.

That allegations of sexual abuse have been made against Luc Versteylen is remarkable as he has always been a vocal campaigner against child abuse.

***

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... n/1.935504


3/01/11 - An abuse case in Kortrijk is attracting a lot of attention. A man in his fifties has filed a complaint about abuse in a former orphanage. He claims that he was abused by nuns from the age of 5. He agreed to speak with VRT's Sofie Demeyer on condition he could remain anonymous.



***


http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... s/1.929826

The Head of the Roman Catholic Church in Belgium Archbishop André-Joseph Léonard has given evidence to the Parliamentary Commission on Sexual Abuse within the Church. Like the former Belgian Primate Cardinal Godfried Danneels yesterday, Archbishop Léonard refused to accept personal responsibility for abuse perpetrated by paedophile priests

However, he did announce a number of measures to tackle the issue of child sex abuse within the Belgian Roman Catholic Church.

Archbishop Léonard told the Commission that "I’m here in three capacities; as the former Bishop of Namur, as the Archbishop of Mechelen-Brussels and as the Chairman of the Conference of Bishops”.

He stressed that he has only has a say in what happens within the Mechelen-Brussels diocese and not in dioceses elsewhere in Belgium.


Cardinal Danneels had said the same during his appearance before the Commission on Tuesday.

Both the current and the former Archbishop of Mechelen-Brussels are keen to stress that they have no legal powers over other bishops or priests in other diocese.

"Offenders should ask for forgiveness”
On 23 April this year, the Bishop of Bruges Roger Vangheluwe resigned after it was revealed that he had sexually abused his nephew.

This formed the catalyst for Archbishop Leonard to call on all victims of sexual abuse by clergymen to contact the judicial authorities or the Church Commission on sexual abuse.

"The Commission allowed those victims that didn’t want to go to the judicial authorities the chance to tell their story.”

“I was prepared to follow the Commission’s recommendations, but I deeply regret the damage that was caused during the searches of Church properties in the Mechelen-Brussels Diocese and the confiscation of all the Commissions files on 24 June."

"On 19 May I, as Chairman of the Council of Bishops, together with the other bishops signed a letter where we asked the victims for forgiveness both for the abuse and the poor way in which the Church has reacted to it", Archbishop Léonard said.

He added that the letter was intended to give moral support to the victims.

However, none of those that signed the letter had been guilty of any abuse.

Therefore the Archbishop stresses that it is up to the abusers to ask their victims for forgiveness.


Openness and transparency
Since becoming Archbishop, Léonard has not received any reports of sexual abuse within his diocese.

Nevertheless, he did receive a list of 20 suspected abusers from the Church Commission on Sexual Abuse.

However, Archbishop Léonard says that he was only given names and no information as to the nature or severity of the alleged abuse.

As Bishop of Namur, Léonard had knowledge of 8 cases of sexual abuse within his diocese.

He claims that he never tried to cover anything up with relation to these cases and had looked out for both the victims and the abusers.

Archbishop Léonard refused to be drawn when asked if victims will be given compensation.

All he would say is that it is up to the judicial authorities to decide if an institution (in this case the church) can be held responsible for actions that those in charge of it had no control over.

In outlining the Church’s future strategy, Archbishop Leonard said that a code of conduct will be drawn up for dealing with the victims of abuse.

Furthermore, Priests will receive greater guidance to help them do their job correctly.

***

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... s/1.925274

Come down hard on abuse by priests"

The Bishop of Ghent Luc Van Looy has said that the Church needs to come down hard on sexual abuse by clergymen. Bishop Van Looy was speaking before the Parliamentary Commission on Sexual Abuse on Wednesday morning.

The Bishop of Ghent added that he has been is “deeply moved” by the child sex abuse scandals that have rocked the Catholic Church in Belgium.

Bishop Van Looy believes that the Church should report any suspicions of sexual abuse by members of the clergy to the judicial authorities.

He also believes that the Church should make more effective use of canon law to punish priests that have abused minors.

Bishop Van Looy took the opportunity to offer his sincere apologies to the victims of abuse by priests.

“As a human being, as a believer, as a priest and as a bishop, I am deeply ashamed.”

“This is about the inhumane suffering of the victims of criminal sexual abuse.”

“The victims’ self-confidence and their trust in others has been taken away at a young age”, Bishop Van Looy told the Commission.



***

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... s/1.918332

Vatican investigates ex Bishop of Bruges

The Vatican in Rome intends to consider the case of the former Bishop of Bruges who admitted that he had been involved in child sex abuse. Pope Benedict XVI, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, has asked the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to examine the case centring on the West Flemish cleric Roger Vangheluwe.

The former Bishop of Bruges earlier admitted repeated sexual abuse of his nephew, who was a minor at the time.

In April Pope Benedict accepted the Bishop's resignation. For a while it seemed like the matter would end like that, but the Roman Catholic Church's failure to act in this case triggered a storm of indignation among Catholics in Belgium.

On Friday night the Vatican announced that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the body that deals with the most serious offences in the Church of Rome, would after all consider this matter.

A spokesman for the Vatican said that the decision to involve the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had been taken "some weeks ago".

Pope Benedict accepted the Bishop of Bruges' resignation on 23 April 2010 following revelations that the churchman committed sexual abuse on a minor for several years. Amid a storm of indignation Roger Vangheluwe then sought refuge in the Abbey of Westvleteren renowned for the Trappist beer of the same name.

As incredulity about the Catholic Church's lax approach to the churchman's offences grew, the former Bishop of Bruges announced that he would leave the Abbey and go and contemplate in "a secret place". By this time several leading figures in the Roman Catholic Church had suggested that Roger Vangheluwe could not continue as a priest, but no action was taken.

***

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... n/1.908721

Pope Benedict has convened a meeting of the world's Roman Catholic cardinals. Top of the agenda is the crisis that the Church is facing as a result of child abuse by Catholic clergy. Relations with the Protestant Church of England too are under consideration. VRT News took a look at the situation across the water.

***

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.e ... s/1.888436

103 new reports of abuse by clergymen

In the past month, the federal judicial authorities have received 103 new reports of sexual abuse by members of the clergy. Since last month, the federal judicial authorities have been responsible for coordinating action on reports of sexual abuse perpetrated by priests.

So far, 53 of the 103 case files have been forwarded on to the local judicial authorities.

11 case files have been sent to the judicial authorities in Leuven (Flemish Brabant), 5 to Hasselt (Limburg) and Ghent (East Flanders), 4 to Dendermonde (East Flanders) and 3 to Antwerp and Kortrijk (West Flanders).

In an interview with the daily ‘Gazet van Antwerpen’, Lieve Pellemans of the federal judicial authorities says that many of the reports of abuse happened too long ago for a prosecution to be brought.

Ms Pellemans added that "Most of the victims aren’t seeking revenge; they just want recognition of what has been done to them.”

“The oldest victim is 82, the youngest is 23.”

“76% of the victims are male, their average age is 49.”

“In half of the cases the identity of the abuser is known.”

“28% of the abusers that have been identified are still alive.”

The federal judicial authorities also received 13 reports of abuse from the Adriaenssens Commission on sexual abuse within the Church.

These will also be passed on to the various local judicial authorities.
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Re: I've had it up to here with religion!

Postby bigV » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:57 am

bigV wrote:I mean - you watch movies, you see these wise old priests, talking to the family of the deceased, providing comfort in this difficult time... But that's just in the movies, isn't it?


My grandmother passed away a week before Christmas. Something similar to what I described in the first post happened at her funeral. At this point I'm not even surprised or even disgusted. I just don't care.

I hope I live to see the day when mankind no longer needs that hypothesis - religion. But I guess that's even less likely than world peace, isn't it?

When I go... I don't want churches or priests or a cross at my grave. I think I'd prefer to be cremated and my ashes scattered over a place I love... maybe Africa...

Morbid musings. Random thoughts. Sorry if I brought anyone down with this post. I'll probably edit it tomorrow. It's 5 AM here... I should probably get to bed.

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