Poppy Day

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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:36 am

QueenOfRhye wrote:However with Islamic fundementalists it seems to be a different ball game, I believe that the best way, is to root out the ringleaders, and destroy the threat that way.


By waging war with two different nations and causing the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in the process?
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:39 am

QueenOfRhye wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:There seems to be an assumption here that not being happy with the way Remembrance Day is represented now means you agree it should be reserved only for World War Veterans. It's not who is being remembered I object to, it's that I object to dead soldiers being used a war justifying propaganda.



I personally think Rememberance Day for me is remembering all British Troops who have been killed , suffer combat PTSD , or those who currently serve. The thing that has me flying into a wanting to put a brick through my tv type rage is when I see the lying stinking hypocritical politicians laying their wreaths at the Cenotaph, to them our troops are just "cannon fodder", expendable should they get injured during service, I don't see Brown, Bliar or Cameron thinking about the loss of life as they keep the war machine turning.


But why just British troops? Why not all troops? And exactly, watching politicians and members of the Monarchy stand and look moved and righteously indignant is not what I consider an honest way of remembering soldiers who died in war.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Pastieman.Steve » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:53 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Pastieman.Steve wrote:
WTF? :shock: Who the hell is justifying wars, where do you get that crazy notion from?


You don't think the whole occasion in the way it's represented now somewhat brushes past the fact the soldiers who are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are losing their lives in a illegal war? That it's kind of focusing on the apparent glory and brilliance of dying in a fight 'for your country', rather than that young men, often teenagers, are dying in a conflict our Government lied to that very country to get into in the first place?


Whether it is illegal or not makes not one bit of difference, the fact remains we are in a conflict which our troops are involved in and sadly being killed or injured in. By your way of thinking, by not remembering all those that have lost their lives on remembrance day in whatever war/conflict is IMO more disrespectful to those young people simply because you disagree with our government for sending them there. Without starting this up again, they did not choose to go there and dont in most cases want to be there, so why be disrespectful to them for doing their job?

What you are saying by the same token is that those parents, families, friends and loved ones of troops that come back should not be celebrating when they return home safely. Well I am sorry to say Belle when my son came home from both Iraq and Afghanistan I was so proud of what he had done, whether you believe in these conflicts or not you would do the same if it was your child or loved one.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Pastieman.Steve » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:57 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
But why just British troops? Why not all troops? And exactly, watching politicians and members of the Monarchy stand and look moved and righteously indignant is not what I consider an honest way of remembering soldiers who died in war.


You seem to forget that Prince Harry served in Afgan, so I think as he has lived and worked in a warzone he has every right to remember the fallen. The Queen also served, as do most members of the Royal family, most if not all would have lost friends due to conflicts, I know Prince William lost a good friend, my son carried her body off the plane at Brize Norton.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:10 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Pastieman.Steve wrote:
WTF? :shock: Who the hell is justifying wars, where do you get that crazy notion from?


You don't think the whole occasion in the way it's represented now somewhat brushes past the fact the soldiers who are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are losing their lives in a illegal war? That it's kind of focusing on the apparent glory and brilliance of dying in a fight 'for your country', rather than that young men, often teenagers, are dying in a conflict our Government lied to that very country to get into in the first place?


Whether it is illegal or not makes not one bit of difference, the fact remains we are in a conflict which our troops are involved in and sadly being killed or injured in. By your way of thinking, by not remembering all those that have lost their lives on remembrance day in whatever war/conflict is IMO more disrespectful to those young people simply because you disagree with our government for sending them there. Without starting this up again, they did not choose to go there and dont in most cases want to be there, so why be disrespectful to them for doing their job?

What you are saying by the same token is that those parents, families, friends and loved ones of troops that come back should not be celebrating when they return home safely. Well I am sorry to say Belle when my son came home from both Iraq and Afghanistan I was so proud of what he had done, whether you believe in these conflicts or not you would do the same if it was your child or loved one.


That literally couldn't have been further from what I said. It makes a huge difference, when you're talking about what is being remembered. I think that Remembrance should be about remembering those who have lost their lives in war and the current version of it seems to be more about making the war look less like an indefensible illegal mistake by our Governments. You're reading something entirely different to what I'm writing, taking offence on behalf of troops I'm defending!

"families, friends and loved ones of troops that come back should not be celebrating when they return home safely" ....Where on earth have you gotten that from? I think Remembrance day should be about remembering soldiers, therefore I think families ought not to be happy their loved ones get home safely? How have you made that connection?!

Families, you included, must have spent the time their loves ones were involved in those conflicts permanently terrified for their safety. Other families have already lost loves ones to the same conflict. I don't think Remembrance Day makes any effort to show that sacrifice, instead choosing to glorify all war including these ones, which makes it very significant that this one is illegal!

I don't like the way Remembrance Day is represented now, I don't think it shows sincere respect for soldiers, past or present and that I don't think is right. How on earth you can take that to mean anything negative against soldiers or anything else, I really don't know.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:17 am

How can someone whose Irish ancestors fought in WWI wear a poppy, when that poppy also celebrates the soldiers who shot other Irish people in the back as they ran away in Derry?

That's why it makes a difference. Wanting to help injured troops is absolutely fine and I myself have contributed. But Poppy Day had become a nationalistic event, where those who died recently are celebrated as heroes. Many of them may well have been heroes, but many will also have killed innocent, unarmed people.
 
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:23 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
But why just British troops? Why not all troops? And exactly, watching politicians and members of the Monarchy stand and look moved and righteously indignant is not what I consider an honest way of remembering soldiers who died in war.


You seem to forget that Prince Harry served in Afgan, so I think as he has lived and worked in a warzone he has every right to remember the fallen. The Queen also served, as do most members of the Royal family, most if not all would have lost friends due to conflicts, I know Prince William lost a good friend, my son carried her body off the plane at Brize Norton.


No I haven't forgotten, again I'm more against the existence of the Iraq and Afghanistan war, none of those lives would have been lost without them. Yes, he, they, all of them and everyone, have a right to remember the fallen. At no point at all have I said otherwise. You seem absolutely determined I'm somehow against the people who have lost lives and friends, whereas I'm actually against the notion that the loss of those lives is a good thing. Remembrance Day should be about that, about the tragic loss of life and remembering them. I can't think of a better way to describe this without quoting Wilfred Owen. To me teenagers dying because our Government illegally sent them to Iraq, is horrible, tragic and wrong, as are the deaths of the thousands of Non-British people. Not in any sense glorious, just tragic and avoidable had our Government not barefaced lied.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:24 am

Elessar wrote:How can someone whose Irish ancestors fought in WWI wear a poppy, when that poppy also celebrates the soldiers who shot other Irish people in the back as they ran away in Derry?

That's why it makes a difference. Wanting to help injured troops is absolutely fine and I myself have contributed. But Poppy Day had become a nationalistic event, where those who died recently are celebrated as heroes. Many of them may well have been heroes, but many will also have killed innocent, unarmed people.


Yeah, absolutely.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Pastieman.Steve » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:25 am

Sorry if I misread your reply or more into it than is there, but that is how I took it :)

Other families have already lost loves ones to the same conflict. I don't think Remembrance Day makes any effort to show that sacrifice, instead choosing to glorify all war including these ones, which makes it very significant that this one is illegal!


Disagree on this point, there were plenty of programs about those injured and how they are getting their lives back together and on some of those that have lost their lives, but not everybody wants a film crew following them about and asking them to talk about something they would sooner forget or just not talk about. At the remembrance service at the Albert Hall, there were wives, children of lost troops and injured in the main "parade" so you are totally wrong on this count along with your "glorifying war" comments.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:36 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:Sorry if I misread your reply or more into it than is there, but that is how I took it :)

Other families have already lost loves ones to the same conflict. I don't think Remembrance Day makes any effort to show that sacrifice, instead choosing to glorify all war including these ones, which makes it very significant that this one is illegal!


Disagree on this point, there were plenty of programs about those injured and how they are getting their lives back together and on some of those that have lost their lives, but not everybody wants a film crew following them about and asking them to talk about something they would sooner forget or just not talk about. At the remembrance service at the Albert Hall, there were wives, children of lost troops and injured in the main "parade" so you are totally wrong on this count along with your "glorifying war" comments.


You don't have to agree, that much is a given, but when huge numbers of people are suddenly starting to feel Remembrance Day has gone wrong somewhere along the lines, it's coming from somewhere. These things do glorify war. Yes they show the families of troops who are all proud of their loved ones, of course they are, what family wouldn't be? What they don't dwell on are those parents of lost troops who directly blame our Government for the loss of their family members and believe the war was based on a lie and that their family members would still be alive had it not been for that lie. What they show absolutely no regard for whatsoever, is the people our side have killed. That is showing the war in a certain light and one which more more honour to it than the full truth, it is glorifying war and that in itself is nothing new, no one could handle war if we were shown a realistic view of it, but we used to remember soldiers on the other side too, and innocent civilians, whereas now we seem to just pretend those don't exist. A glorified view of war.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Pastieman.Steve » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:38 am

Elessar wrote: But Poppy Day had become a nationalistic event, where those who died recently are celebrated as heroes. Many of them may well have been heroes, but many will also have killed innocent, unarmed people.


Most troops on the ground have only shot/killed those shooting at them, not innocent people as you claim. Yes there sadly have been many deaths of innocent people but mainly due to bombing from planes.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:40 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:
Elessar wrote: But Poppy Day had become a nationalistic event, where those who died recently are celebrated as heroes. Many of them may well have been heroes, but many will also have killed innocent, unarmed people.


Most troops on the ground have only shot/killed those shooting at them, not innocent people as you claim. Yes there sadly have been many deaths of innocent people but mainly due to bombing from planes.


Aren't the people who drop bombs from planes also amongst our troops?
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Pastieman.Steve » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:48 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Pastieman.Steve wrote:
Elessar wrote: But Poppy Day had become a nationalistic event, where those who died recently are celebrated as heroes. Many of them may well have been heroes, but many will also have killed innocent, unarmed people.


Most troops on the ground have only shot/killed those shooting at them, not innocent people as you claim. Yes there sadly have been many deaths of innocent people but mainly due to bombing from planes.


Aren't the people who drop bombs from planes also amongst our troops?

Yes but few airman have lost their lives, most who have lost their lives are those on the ground either by IED's or shootings, they are not the ones who have killed innocent, unarmed people.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Pastieman.Steve » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:53 am

You don't have to agree, that much is a given, but when huge numbers of people are suddenly starting to feel Remembrance Day has gone wrong somewhere along the lines, it's coming from somewhere.


What huge number of people? First I have heard anything about it was in this thread.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:03 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:
You don't have to agree, that much is a given, but when huge numbers of people are suddenly starting to feel Remembrance Day has gone wrong somewhere along the lines, it's coming from somewhere.


What huge number of people? First I have heard anything about it was in this thread.


Really? I'm surprised, this has been stirring for a few years now. No one ever wants to say anything which could possibly be construed as anti-soldiers, even though that isn't the intent, but there have been a rising number of people questioning that in the last couple of years. In the wake of 9/11 everyone was so shocked and angry it passed by without protest, but as time has gone on less and less people are willing to toe the line, not being happy with how jingoistic Remembrance day has become is part of that. I know a lot of people who object to it as strongly as Didy has expressed, and a whole lot more who have commented on the way it represents the current wars.
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