Poppy Day

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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:05 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
Pastieman.Steve wrote:Most troops on the ground have only shot/killed those shooting at them, not innocent people as you claim. Yes there sadly have been many deaths of innocent people but mainly due to bombing from planes.


Aren't the people who drop bombs from planes also amongst our troops?

Yes but few airman have lost their lives, most who have lost their lives are those on the ground either by IED's or shootings, they are not the ones who have killed innocent, unarmed people.


But isn't that the problem those who take issue with Poppy Day have expressed? That it now celebrates every soldier past and present, alive or dead, regardless of their deeds, as heroes?
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Kes » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:11 am

Okey dokey. So bravery is measured on how close your arse is to the action?

I remember a friend of my brother's telling me about The Falklands, and how it's one thing to drop somebody at fifty metres with a high velocity rifle, and a totally different thing to go creeping up to the enemy's trenches and ram bayonets in them, seeing the expressions in people's faces and eyes as they realise what you've just done has ended their lives.

It ALL takes a level of bravery, exposing yourself to it, doing it, and more so, living with it after you've done it. From sticking someone with a bayonet, to pressing a button that drops a bomb.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:02 am

Kes wrote:Okey dokey. So bravery is measured on how close your arse is to the action?

I remember a friend of my brother's telling me about The Falklands, and how it's one thing to drop somebody at fifty metres with a high velocity rifle, and a totally different thing to go creeping up to the enemy's trenches and ram bayonets in them, seeing the expressions in people's faces and eyes as they realise what you've just done has ended their lives.

It ALL takes a level of bravery, exposing yourself to it, doing it, and more so, living with it after you've done it. From sticking someone with a bayonet, to pressing a button that drops a bomb.


Agreed. I'm surprised at how seamlessly this went from the Armed Forces to just the Army!
 
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:04 am

Pastieman.Steve wrote:
Elessar wrote: But Poppy Day had become a nationalistic event, where those who died recently are celebrated as heroes. Many of them may well have been heroes, but many will also have killed innocent, unarmed people.


Most troops on the ground have only shot/killed those shooting at them, not innocent people as you claim. Yes there sadly have been many deaths of innocent people but mainly due to bombing from planes.


'Many' and 'most' can refer to separate groups of people without there being a contradiction.
 
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Kes » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:06 pm

I'd run the whole death toll caused by what stuff through "dispute" anyway.

The USAF use drones as well as planes to deliver bombs. In "most" cases, laser guided bombs dropped from aircraft, are targetted or "spotted" onto the target by a member of a ground force team using a telescopic sight and powerful laser pointer. The Army often use trucks racked full of rockets to bombard a target, and those things are about as indiscriminate as they come, accurate to within about four football fields joined together. A 1000lb laser guided bomb dropped from an aircraft will hit within FOUR feet of the laser spot 99 times out of 100, if the spot is held steady.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby QueenOfRhye » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:04 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
QueenOfRhye wrote:However with Islamic fundementalists it seems to be a different ball game, I believe that the best way, is to root out the ringleaders, and destroy the threat that way.


By waging war with two different nations and causing the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians in the process?


No I don't believe waging war in Afghanistan is the way to do it, What I meant was to have troops on duty at mainline
railway stations, seaports and airports to look out for known/suspected terrorists, as terrorist cells operate in the UK.

I know it happened in WW2, the RAF bombed Dresden, and the Luftwaffe hit Coventry, to take out each others manufacturing bases, and civillians of Dresden & Coventry got caught in the crossfire, I think death on all sides, be it military or civillian is a terrible consequence of war, I would much rather things could be settled with a game of football, but unfortunately that won't stop some meglomaniac dictator. I think war should only be used as a last resort when peaceful negotiations have failed. I think Bliar by following President Bush into Afghanistan & Bliars lies over Saddam's weapons of mass destruction have only inflamed the situation IMHO. If I could do it, I would pull all our British troops out of Afghanistan today, before any more are killed, or seriously injured physically or psychologically.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby QueenOfRhye » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:41 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
QueenOfRhye wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:There seems to be an assumption here that not being happy with the way Remembrance Day is represented now means you agree it should be reserved only for World War Veterans. It's not who is being remembered I object to, it's that I object to dead soldiers being used a war justifying propaganda.



I personally think Rememberance Day for me is remembering all British Troops who have been killed , suffer combat PTSD , or those who currently serve. The thing that has me flying into a wanting to put a brick through my tv type rage is when I see the lying stinking hypocritical politicians laying their wreaths at the Cenotaph, to them our troops are just "cannon fodder", expendable should they get injured during service, I don't see Brown, Bliar or Cameron thinking about the loss of life as they keep the war machine turning.


But why just British troops? Why not all troops? And exactly, watching politicians and members of the Monarchy stand and look moved and righteously indignant is not what I consider an honest way of remembering soldiers who died in war.



Well I do also think about Commonwealth & American troops who have also been killed or injured in the fight for freedom, as without them we wouldn't have won our freedom in two world wars. I'm sure that the Germans in WW1&2 didn't really want to be there either, I gather the propaganda machine had them believe that they were doing what was best for Germany, just as ours persuaded young men to join up. When you think about it FREEDOM IS NOT FREE it comes at a price, the blood, and mental anguish of our men & women, be they military or civillian.

As for politicians , I get really angry when I see the lying hypocrites laying their wreaths (probably claimed on expenses), wuth royalty I know The Queen has seved and Prince Andrew as do Prince William and Prince Harry. I think the true meaning of Rememberance is shown when you see the silent tears of our servicemen past & present as they remember fallen/injured comrades, ans also any wives/girlfriends, parents, young children as they remember their fallen loved one.
I'm going slightly mad, it finally happened!!!!
What price precious life???? 345 British troops killed & many more seriously injured, how many more mothers without sons, kids without a dad, wives/girlfriends without a husband/boyfriend BRING THEM HOME NOW
 
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:43 pm

QueenOfRhye wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:
QueenOfRhye wrote:
I personally think Rememberance Day for me is remembering all British Troops who have been killed , suffer combat PTSD , or those who currently serve. The thing that has me flying into a wanting to put a brick through my tv type rage is when I see the lying stinking hypocritical politicians laying their wreaths at the Cenotaph, to them our troops are just "cannon fodder", expendable should they get injured during service, I don't see Brown, Bliar or Cameron thinking about the loss of life as they keep the war machine turning.


But why just British troops? Why not all troops? And exactly, watching politicians and members of the Monarchy stand and look moved and righteously indignant is not what I consider an honest way of remembering soldiers who died in war.



Well I do also think about Commonwealth & American troops who have also been killed or injured in the fight for freedom, as without them we wouldn't have won our freedom in two world wars. I'm sure that the Germans in WW1&2 didn't really want to be there either, I gather the propaganda machine had them believe that they were doing what was best for Germany, just as ours persuaded young men to join up. When you think about it FREEDOM IS NOT FREE it comes at a price, the blood, and mental anguish of our men & women, be they military or civillian.

As for politicians , I get really angry when I see the lying hypocrites laying their wreaths (probably claimed on expenses), wuth royalty I know The Queen has seved and Prince Andrew as do Prince William and Prince Harry. I think the true meaning of Rememberance is shown when you see the silent tears of our servicemen past & present as they remember fallen/injured comrades, ans also any wives/girlfriends, parents, young children as they remember their fallen loved one.


Yeah that's what I mean. Given the majority of, or all really, decent people are most moved by the loss of life in wars, I'd just like to see it remembered that thousands of Iraqi and Afghan people have also died, that in every single conflict innocent lives on both side are lost as well as troops who are all just doing their jobs. Nobody wins wars, one country comes out worse off for longer, while everybody loses.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby QueenOfRhye » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:18 pm

Yes true there' aren't really any true winners in wars. I am struggling a bit with my feelings for the Iraquis and Afghanis, not the ordinary civillians just getting on with their day to day lives. I was thinking about the Afghan National Police & their army. To kill British soldiers as they were sleeping and not able to defend themselves is cowardice. Our forces are meant to be training the ANP and ANA to take charge, but if some members are siding with Al -Quieda , it proves to me they cannot be trusted. The IRA are supposedly "respectable" now as they have MP's in the Commons, but I wouldn't trust a terrorist as far as I could throw him.

As so I understand it many Iraqui soldiers in Gulf War 1 were conscripts, and they didn't really want to be there, however certain Iraqui Army (mainly Officers) brutalised and tortured British POWs, if it's anything you want to study then read (or watch the film, esp Sean Bean fans) of Andy McNab's "Bravo Two Zero" , it tells of B2Z ill fated mission, out of eight men 1 escaped, 3 died due to esposure of extreme weather, and 5 were taken POWs. OK so in the film parts may have been overdramated a little, but I think Sean Bean plays Mc Nab brilliantly. Oh yes my Gt Uncle was a POW of the Japanese in WW2, and a visit to the Far East Prisoners of War hut at the National Memorial Arbouretum is worth a visit. I cried to see the shocking state of the POWs. My Gt Uncle died on one of the Hell Ships, as they were bombed by the Americans as supply ships, but they were carrying sick/injured POWs. I can't blame the Americans, as the Japanese hadn't put a Red Cross flag on the ships, so the bomber crews weren't to know. http://www.roll-of-honour.org.uk/Hell_Ships/ Anyone who commits atrocities against POWs disgusts me.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Kes » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:58 pm

Just co-incidentally, I was working in Base Hangar at Brize Norton on VC10 majors when Gulf War 1 happened.

When it was all over, the bodies of all the British Servicemen killed, were repatriated, and prior to being dispersed for individual burial services, a private service was held in Bay 1 at Base Hangar, Brize Norton. About 22 or 23 coffins, as I remember it, each with a little plaque at the foot of the coffin, saying who was in the box, their unit, and the brief circumstances of how they died.

My lasting memory, apart from the boxes containing B2Z's fallen, was that after taking into account those killed by the elements and flying their planes into the deck, more Brits were killed by Americans, than Iraqis. That was a bit of a shocker.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:51 pm

The problem I have there is that we're being told certain people are terrorists and certain people are not, but I can't help but see starting an illegal war as an act of terrorism, just as bad as any other, worse in fact because it tries to claim to be something else. Iraqi and Afghan soldiers may well have done terrible things but so have some British and American soldiers, while there will be heroes among them on both sides. The bottom line is still that soldiers in war time have to not only live in terrible conditions and see horrible things, risking their lives and watching their friends die, but they also have to do terrible things which they then have to live with. There is no part of it which is not tragic and if it's in a conflict which could have been avoided, then it's not something we as a Nation should be able to look at with pride. That British deaths by Americans statistic is a good example, it's a pointless waste of life, if Poppy Day celebrates than then something has gone wrong.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Delilah » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:55 am

QueenOfRhye wrote:When you think about it FREEDOM IS NOT FREE it comes at a price, the blood, and mental anguish of our men & women, be they military or civillian.


In a way, that one sentence illuminates the whole problem. Of course we should honor our fallen servicemen and women. I think that's a given. But the whole thing is tainted because they aren't out there "fighting for our freedom". That's a bullshit propoganda line used by politicians to shut down debate. What we're doing isn't anything like WWII. These wars are in an entirely different category. Going to war on false pretenses is far more disrespectful to our military men and women than any amount of burning poppies could ever be.
 
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby QueenOfRhye » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:11 pm

Delilah wrote:
QueenOfRhye wrote:When you think about it FREEDOM IS NOT FREE it comes at a price, the blood, and mental anguish of our men & women, be they military or civillian.


In a way, that one sentence illuminates the whole problem. Of course we should honor our fallen servicemen and women. I think that's a given. But the whole thing is tainted because they aren't out there "fighting for our freedom". That's a bullshit propoganda line used by politicians to shut down debate. What we're doing isn't anything like WWII. These wars are in an entirely different category. Going to war on false pretenses is far more disrespectful to our military men and women than any amount of burning poppies could ever be.



Yes I agree that it's the government who start wars not soldiers. I can't help but think that British and Allied troops are being used as cannon fodder by governments, and yes our government does disrespect our troops. I collect items for parcels for our troops in Afghanistan, and send them out via Support Our Soldiers, or Treats For Troops, I did hear a about a letter sent from a Sgt currently in Afghanistan, he said that ration packs had been cut by about 25-33%, as this was being sent to Pakistani flood victims, as well as £60m= in aid, whilst I feel for the Pakistani flood victims, (or anyone who looses their home via natural disaster), I think the Pakistani covernment should help it's own poorest citizens. If Pakistan can afford nuclear weapons then it can help their poorest people. The money spent on ration packs is a part of the defence budget, and so should be used as such, no wonder this Sgt said morale was at an all time low in his letter. That's just typical our government sends our troops to war without sufficient equipment, give our troops the equipment they need or even better, bring them home NOW!!!!! I see that the MOD cave cancelled Christmas parties for our lads & lassies away from home, allegedly as a result of recession, but I don't think £30 is much at all per troop. I would much rather see the money spent on christmas parties for our troops who will be away from loved ones this Yuletide. I would much rather the money is spen t there, rather than given to that EU gravy train, or in some fat bloated overblown MPs pocket.

I was also taught as a kid that treading over someones grave including war memorials, or defacing it (including the poppy burners), or climbing all over a memorial, swinging from the flags is being disrespectful to those who have served and died as a result of war. I know in an ideal world , everyone would be able to get along with everyone else, but maybe that was just some utopian dream, which speaking as a realist, nice thought but I see it as impossible.
I'm going slightly mad, it finally happened!!!!
What price precious life???? 345 British troops killed & many more seriously injured, how many more mothers without sons, kids without a dad, wives/girlfriends without a husband/boyfriend BRING THEM HOME NOW
 
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby QueenOfRhye » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:31 pm

Kes wrote:Just co-incidentally, I was working in Base Hangar at Brize Norton on VC10 majors when Gulf War 1 happened.

When it was all over, the bodies of all the British Servicemen killed, were repatriated, and prior to being dispersed for individual burial services, a private service was held in Bay 1 at Base Hangar, Brize Norton. About 22 or 23 coffins, as I remember it, each with a little plaque at the foot of the coffin, saying who was in the box, their unit, and the brief circumstances of how they died.

My lasting memory, apart from the boxes containing B2Z's fallen, was that after taking into account those killed by the elements and flying their planes into the deck, more Brits were killed by Americans, than Iraqis. That was a bit of a shocker.


Oh Kes, I find myself shedding a tear when I see the coffins being repatriated, and the playing of The Last Post. From what I've read/heard about B2Z it was one big mess up from start to finish, I understand the patrol had been given the wrong radio frequencies, and so the needless deaths and the compromise.
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Re: Poppy Day

Postby Elessar » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:39 pm

Always better to resurrect an old thread than to start a new one...

Anyone watching Bloody Sunday on ITV3 right now? 13 excellent reasons not to wear a poppy.
 
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