Feels good man

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Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:08 am

DRUGS.

You see an unnecessary over-dose and ignore the fact that the person overdosing was already choosing to voluntarily and illegally poison themselves, thus it's not drug prohibition killing them, it's them, choosing to take drugs they are fully aware pose a potentially lethal threat. You could eliminate drug dealers and no one would argue it would be a huge step forward, but you're not seriously about to suggest such a change of system would have no side effects? No possible, negative side to having legally available heroin purely for recreational purposes? The issue is not quite as black and white as you're trying to suggest.


As the risk of supplying a good is increased, cost increases. Heroin bought by the NHS costs £6 a gram, on the street, for 40% heroin, you'd pay £40 for a gram. This is ultimately the cause of much drug related theft. Drugs needs not send people into poverty. Prohibition ensures they do.

Secondly, a huge number of overdoses occur due to lack of oversight of quantity and qualities of drugs. It is not uncommon for those released on prison to lose their tolerance for their particular vice, only to take a high dose (that would have been ok for them before) and die. Compare to alcohol, where quantities and qualities can be easily regulated. In fact, when considering prohition, ALWAYS compare to alcohol. Alcohol is a drug that was once in the same catagory as heroin, and then was legalised.

As for eliminating drug dealers, they are THE defining symptom of prohibition. Once the law abiding part of the population is forbidden to deal a good, the trade necessarily passes onto those of less scrupilous morals. When's the last time a dealer asked for ID?

Ultimately, prohibition is the system that says "We have here some very addictive, dangerous substances. Let's abdicate all control of the quality and distribution of them, and pass them to a sector of society with absolutely no reason to take care of their products or consumers".

It's comparable to saying the solution to knife crime is "knives are dangerous; let's get rid of age of sale laws and put criminals in charge of their distribution".

It's hard to find one single element of prohibition that has actually worked. Hell, even during alcohol prohibition, consumption ROSE! as did overdose, poisoning and, ironically, absenteeism (a major cause of introducing prohibition in the first place).

For homework, everyone read these:
Drug decriminalisation in Portugal http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/green ... epaper.pdf
Blueprint for Regulation http://www.tdpf.org.uk/Transform_Drugs_Blueprint.pdf

EDIT: Oh yeah, read this http://lpuk.blogspot.com/2009/03/this-i ... on-of.html I wrote this a little over a year ago. Still holds up.
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Belle Leisha » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:02 am

All completely true, but not an argument for legalising class A drugs. If you were talking about food prohibition, then certainly, food is a necessity people need, but the only way you can successfully argue that there is no possible opposition to legalized heroin is if while no one was paying attention, it's suddenly become a human requirement.

Every single point you've made completely ignores the choice made by the individual taking drugs. Drugs use doesn't need to lead people into poverty, well no I'm sure it doesn't but my sympathies for those in poverty lie rather more strongly with the ones among them not on drugs! If you ruin yourself because you're paying to feed an addiction, you are both 100% responsible for posible crimes committed because of that addictrion and completely to blame for your own financial problems.

Your example of people losing their tolerance in jail, is a good one actually. If drugs were made legal do you think it would just be existing addicts or users that continued using them? You don't think anyone's decision regarding drugs is hevaily influenced by the law against them thus making them much more difficult and expensive to buy? I doubt it, so what you have then is more drug users all with your own example of knowledge of how they work, how powerful they are and how much they can take.

From the last argument about this I remember there being some very compelling research and examples as to why not removing, but changing the laws on drugs would be beneficial and that I agree with completely. Something does need to be done about it, but not something done in indignation at a law telling people what to do, but done to protect people from the effects of an illegal drugs trade. It's not a simple notion though, legal selling of potentially deadly substances, it's not a giant leap away from the right to bear arms is it. The chance for harm to other people is lessened, but not removed. The current law isn't working, but removing the laws completely could be equally disastrous if not worse. Revising the law, carefully, until it's seen to be working and then continuing to do so, would be the only reasonable way to go.
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Bijou » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:09 am

I really don't like this attitude. If something bad is happening, just make it legal? :?

Murder is never going to end, so why not change the law because there's nothing we can do about it?

Sorry, I do not buy that. You can't just say it's a big problem so what is the point in trying to curb it. That's nonsense.
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:18 am

All completely true, but not an argument for legalising class A drugs. If you were talking about food prohibition, then certainly, food is a necessity people need, but the only way you can successfully argue that there is no possible opposition to legalized heroin is if while no one was paying attention, it's suddenly become a human requirement.

If a system of regulation will keep class B drugs safe, then it is quite necessarily even more important to regulate the class A ones.

That, of course, would be assuming that "class" reflected the danger of the drug. It doesn't. That's one of the causes of the whole mess over at the ACMD recently- they are demanding drugs be classed according to their potential for harm. Alcohol, theoretically, SHOULD be class A.

Every single point you've made completely ignores the choice made by the individual taking drugs. Drugs use doesn't need to lead people into poverty, well no I'm sure it doesn't but my sympathies for those in poverty lie rather more strongly with the ones among them not on drugs! If you ruin yourself because you're paying to feed an addiction, you are both 100% responsible for posible crimes committed because of that addictrion and completely to blame for your own financial problems.

I am not convinced that addiction is entirely rational behaviour, and also, when dealing with massively inflated prices and a much higher risk of contamination due to the effects of prohibition, it's quite clear external forces are operating on that person. Thus, they cannot be said to be operating "of their own free will". The status quo forces people into poverty and crime by leaving no alternatives open.

Your example of people losing their tolerance in jail, is a good one actually. If drugs were made legal do you think it would just be existing addicts or users that continued using them?

The quantities and qualities could easily be regulated. As suggested by transform, one framework could be for those one drugs to work in line with programs directly aimed at their needs. Oh, with drugs not contaminated with anthrax, of course. What must be kept in mind is that under a legalized framework, an infinate number of regulatory systems are possible. Under prohibition, the only option is the proverbial (and if you live in Afghanistan, one of Cambodia's inhuman rape and beating, er, I mean, "compulsory rehab clinics", not so proverbial) iron fist.

As for the users, every time a drug has been legalized, use has gone down. Happened in Portugal, for all drugs. Happened in America with Alcohol. Most likely because the allure has vanished. "We've succeeded in making pot boring", as they say in Holland.


You don't think anyone's decision regarding drugs is hevaily influenced by the law against them thus making them much more difficult and expensive to buy? I doubt it, so what you have then is more drug users all with your own example of knowledge of how they work, how powerful they are and how much they can take.

Clarification please.
Incidently, there is a new ish book out called "How to have fun and not die". The central theme of the book is combinations of drugs that are likely to create overdose or other problems. The majority of drug deaths, indeed the vast majority, occur on or because of a certain COMBINATION of drugs taken. Alcohol and heroin are a particularly bad combo. As for drug users being more educated, that's 100% good news, surely?

From the last argument about this I remember there being some very compelling research and examples as to why not removing, but changing the laws on drugs would be beneficial and that I agree with completely.

Remember- it's not a throw up between prohibition and total legalization. There are infinite regulatory measures that can be taken. The Blueprint book is full of 'em.

Something does need to be done about it, but not something done in indignation at a law telling people what to do, but done to protect people from the effects of an illegal drugs trade. It's not a simple notion though, legal selling of potentially deadly substances

Alcohol?

The chance for harm to other people is lessened, but not removed. The current law isn't working, but removing the laws completely could be equally disastrous if not worse. Revising the law, carefully, until it's seen to be working and then continuing to do so, would be the only reasonable way to go.

Of course harm cannot be removed. Nothing is utterly safe, since human stupidity is the only thing as infinite as human creativity. However, even if harm reduction would occur as a result of legalisation and regulation, that' a reason for it, right?
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:20 am

Murder is never going to end, so why not change the law because there's nothing we can do about it?


There is nothing intrinsic about heroin that makes it get smuggled into countries and sold by criminals. Prohibition does that.

The PROBLEM is prohibition. The CAUSE of crime is prohibition. Think of alcohol prohibition. What we are seeing with other drugs is utterly the same.
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Bijou » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:29 am

Zappanalé wrote:
The CAUSE of crime is prohibition.


So someone mugs, attacks or kills someone because it's not allowed? So in your view, if all those sort of things weren't illegal, people wouldn't do it?
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:32 am

No, no, no. This doesn't apply to ALL crimes.

A murder is committed because of anger, hatred or jealousy. It doesn't happen "because murder is illegal".

Smuggling and dealing, however, occur BECAUSE it's the only possible way, BECAUSE of prohibition. It's a crime of opportunity. Prohibition gives them that opportunity.

Once again: Think back to Alcohol. Alcohol is a drug once in the same category as heroin. It was legalised to public tears of joy. That prohibition gave rise to the most notorious gangsters in American History. Al Capone made his riches out of prohibition. Now look at the situation.
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Bijou » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:43 am

I'm sorry but I just can't understand that logic. Drugs ruin lives and if people to choose that way of life, well they pave their own path. Making it legal is like giving in. If that laws went then that paves the way for terrible things to happen.
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:48 am

I'm sorry but I just can't understand that logic. Drugs ruin lives and if people to choose that way of life, well they pave their own path. Making it legal is like giving in. If that laws went then that paves the way for terrible things to happen.


They ruin lives BECAUSE of what prohibition does to the price, supply, and nature of drugs. It makes them more expensive. It forces them into the hands of the violent. It makes them be cut with other substances and get contaminated.

If that laws went then that paves the way for terrible things to happen.

Well, then, PLEASE explain alcohol. It has been through exactly what I am suggesting. Do not fall into the trap of thinking "alcohol is separate". It is absolutely not. It was prohibited. It was sold by gangsters. It became more potent and dangerous. It was legalised. It became safe. Use and illness dropped. Would you prohibit alcohol now?

Also please explain Portugal and Holland.

Actually, please give me one way in which prohibition has worked.
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Delilah » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:36 am

I pretty much agree with you, ZappoMartin. Anyone who wants an illegal drug can get an illegal drug, prohibition or not. Yet most of us don't try heroin anyway. Pot, 'shrooms, acid, sure. Those are normal drugs to try as you grow up. And you know, they're pretty mild on the harm scale. Cocaine is somewhere in between, but no one who wants it has much of a hard time getting it either. All this "War on Drugs", and yet they are still readily available to anyone who wants them. What does prohibition actually do to reduce drug use? Really, the ages at which most people experiment with drugs are the same ages at which "illegal" makes it even cooler anyway.
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Sir Didymus » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:56 am

Zappanalé wrote:The PROBLEM is prohibition. The CAUSE of crime is prohibition. Think of alcohol prohibition. What we are seeing with other drugs is utterly the same.


Except alcohol isn't quite so habbit forming as heroin, now, is it? It can fuck up lives, but its nowhere near the levels that most Class A drugs do. And its not the legality that's the issue there, but the drug itself.
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:09 pm


Except alcohol isn't quite so habbit forming as heroin, now, is it? It can fuck up lives, but its nowhere near the levels that most Class A drugs do. And its not the legality that's the issue there, but the drug itself.


Actually, it is. The difference is, it's not being forced into users at inflated prices by violent criminals. Alcohol is much addictive than many illegal drugs.
(Source: ‘Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse’ by David Nutt, 2007)

The legality IS an issue. It always has been. There is nothing intrinsic about heroin that forces criminals to deal with it. Prohibition is the criminals charter, it always has been.

Again. If legalising drugs is bad, PLEASE explain alcohol, and Portugal, and Holland.
Because quite frankly, I feel the burden of proof is on the prohibitionists at the moment. We have had a century of constant failure, of people being killed- not just by dirty drugs, but by governments in war and house raids- and nothing positive to show for it.

I'm still looking for one way in which the status quo is working. I haven't found one yet.
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:18 pm

This is not surprising.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... 101408.ece

Now, I wonder if there's been any change in price since the ban?
 
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Re: Feels good man

Postby Elessar » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:12 pm

Zappanalé wrote:

Except alcohol isn't quite so habbit forming as heroin, now, is it? It can fuck up lives, but its nowhere near the levels that most Class A drugs do. And its not the legality that's the issue there, but the drug itself.


Actually, it is. The difference is, it's not being forced into users at inflated prices by violent criminals. Alcohol is much addictive than many illegal drugs.


True, but heroin beats it.

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Re: Feels good man

Postby Zappanalé » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:14 pm

That chart comes from the very study I cited.

Now, if you compare the drugs danger to their class, you get...


...no correlation at all.
 
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