Slutwalk

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Do you think women are partly to blame if they are assaulted when dressed provocatively?

Yes
3
12%
No
23
88%
 
Total votes : 26

Re: Slutwalk

Postby icy » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:42 am

:lol: Mind you, better stuff out there :P.
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Tero! » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:09 am

Delilah wrote:Let's just say that you have a woman who likes to sometimes go to a bar, drink, flirt with men, and have one-night-stands. In the year 2011, how is this unacceptable behavior for a woman?


Can you find a quote where I have said that it's unacceptable behaviour? I didn't think so.

Delilah wrote:Yes indeed, she could avoid that risk factor by being a good little chaste girl and never drinking, flirting, or having casual sex. Hooray for feminism.


Exactly. She could avoid the risk by avoiding all men for all of here life.
She could also reduce the risk by by dressing and acting appropriately for the surroundings. That's not chauvinism or misogynism, it's common sense. If I want to avoid bar brawls, I stay out of bars... Especially when it's closing time, especially in strange towns, and especially being drunk as a skunk.

Maybe this is all just about feminism to you, but I see it as neutral cautious advice.




Delilah wrote:How about we just try to view people as people, and lay the blame where it belongs...on the person who did the assaulting, not the person who trusted them enough to give them the opportunity?


Can you find a quote where I have said that it's the victims fault? I didn't think so.

It's not blaming anybody to say that they can choose just how much of a risk they want to take with their lives. It's a neutral statement that everybody should be aware of... If you choose to go into circumstances where you are more likely to be picked as a victim for a rapist, you have to aknowledge that fact and take extra care of yourself.

The world is not a nice place, and you can't count on other people being nice.
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Delilah » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:20 am

Tero, if there was half as much pressure put on men to respect women's boundaries and see them as human beings even if she's got some cleavage showing as there is on women tailoring their behavior out of rape-terror, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with what you posted. You can't deny that there is a "she was asking for it" mythology out there that's so deeply ingrained in our societies that if the woman happened to be showing a lot of skin when she was targeted for rape, she is held partially responsible. It's an undercurrent of "she was out looking like a whore, what did she expect?" and "if she'll give it away to all those guys, I should be able to get it too". Women as objects, not people. Prostitutes are raped all the time, and they certainly don't deserve that either. The only scenario where I hear similar things directed towards men is in the case of gay men getting accosted and beaten up, where you hear "what did he expect, going out in public looking like such a fag?" And what gets me the most is that the rape you're talking about is usually perpetrated by the girl's friend, or someone she thinks of as a friend. Someone she knows. It's not as common for the rapist to be a stranger at the bar. I have been that girl at the bar flirting with strangers. Never has this behavior resulted rape. Having male friends is a far higher risk factor. They know where you live. They know that you will be comfortable enough around them to let down your guard. We are more careful with strangers, and therefore less likely to be harmed.

I'm saying, work on the men, not on the women. A drunk woman at a bar flirting with a man is no less worthy of respect than a virgin in the church choir. Speaking of which, numerous virgins in the church choir get raped by the minister or priest. I'm telling you...there isn't much we can do to truly cut down our risk. Women's behavior isn't the problem. Work on the men instead, and you might come closer to truly reducing risk.
 
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Dusty » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:30 pm

Again, where is that applauding smilie...
 
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Tero! » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:54 pm

Delilah wrote:I'm saying, work on the men, not on the women. A drunk woman at a bar flirting with a man is no less worthy of respect than a virgin in the church choir. Speaking of which, numerous virgins in the church choir get raped by the minister or priest. I'm telling you...there isn't much we can do to truly cut down our risk. Women's behavior isn't the problem. Work on the men instead, and you might come closer to truly reducing risk.


Of course you have to work on the criminals (not the men), but until that has been resolved it's the responsibility of every person to reduce the risks on their own part.


The same exact principle applies to every single type of crime and every single person. For example:
I know that based on statistics Rio de Janeiro is one of the most dangerous cities in the world, but I'm going to the Carneval next year.

It doesn't help me the slightest bit if I post online that I have the absolute right to walk in any part of the town, at any time of the day. I have to understand that I cannot go into certain parts of the town alone, that I can't walk on empty streets after dark, and that I can't walk around with my wallet in my hand, unless I want to intentionally put myself into a bigger risk.

That's all I'm saying, but it gets muffled under the screams for womens rights. ;-)
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Delilah » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:34 am

Tero! wrote:
Delilah wrote:I'm saying, work on the men, not on the women. A drunk woman at a bar flirting with a man is no less worthy of respect than a virgin in the church choir. Speaking of which, numerous virgins in the church choir get raped by the minister or priest. I'm telling you...there isn't much we can do to truly cut down our risk. Women's behavior isn't the problem. Work on the men instead, and you might come closer to truly reducing risk.


Of course you have to work on the criminals (not the men), but until that has been resolved it's the responsibility of every person to reduce the risks on their own part.


The same exact principle applies to every single type of crime and every single person. For example:
I know that based on statistics Rio de Janeiro is one of the most dangerous cities in the world, but I'm going to the Carneval next year.

It doesn't help me the slightest bit if I post online that I have the absolute right to walk in any part of the town, at any time of the day. I have to understand that I cannot go into certain parts of the town alone, that I can't walk on empty streets after dark, and that I can't walk around with my wallet in my hand, unless I want to intentionally put myself into a bigger risk.

That's all I'm saying, but it gets muffled under the screams for womens rights. ;-)


But what I'm saying is that flirting with a guy at a bar while your cleavage is showing isn't more of a risk factor for rape than being alone in a house with a man you know. Where the screaming for women's rights comes in is that the focus is always on something that the woman or girl is doing that might be sexually attractive to men. Women showing some skin, drinking at bars, flirting with men, etc. Our cultures have a history of trying to control women's sexuality. It's so ingrained into society that we just automatically accept the mythology that a woman is more likely to be raped if she isn't hiding her sexuality. That isn't what happens in the real world. What happens in the real world is that men who rape usually rape women that they know. Women in their circle. Women who aren't dressing up all sexy just to see them.

Well fuck it, here's some stats:

Seventy-seven (77)% of completed rapes are committed by non-strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). A woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger (Illinois Coaliltion Against Sexual Assault, 2002). Every year, an estimated one woman in eight in college is raped and in 85% of those assaults the women knew their attacker (Texas Woman's University, 2007.

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32306

Now tell me....what risk factor should we fear? The drinking at a bar showing too much leg and flirting with strangers variety? Or the I have male friends and acquaintances whom I'm sometimes alone with variety? So why exactly is what a woman wears to a bar and who she flirts with considered to be a risk factor for rape that we should keep in mind? Statistically, I should be more afraid to go to a male friend's house than I should be to go home with a stranger.
 
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Tero! » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:54 am

Delilah wrote:But what I'm saying is that flirting with a guy at a bar while your cleavage is showing isn't more of a risk factor for rape than being alone in a house with a man you know.


If 23% percent of rapes are commited by total strangers, and 10% of those are commited by the guys who you're trying to impress at bars, it's still a 2.3% increase in the risk. If you would like to decrease your risk, you have the option of not showing cleavage in bars to flirt with guys.


Delilah wrote:Well fuck it, here's some stats:

Seventy-seven (77)% of completed rapes are committed by non-strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). A woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger (Illinois Coaliltion Against Sexual Assault, 2002). Every year, an estimated one woman in eight in college is raped and in 85% of those assaults the women knew their attacker (Texas Woman's University, 2007.

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32306

Now tell me....what risk factor should we fear? The drinking at a bar showing too much leg and flirting with strangers variety? Or the I have male friends and acquaintances whom I'm sometimes alone with variety? So why exactly is what a woman wears to a bar and who she flirts with considered to be a risk factor for rape that we should keep in mind? Statistically, I should be more afraid to go to a male friend's house than I should be to go home with a stranger.


I hate to say it to you, but that statistic doesn't say anything about what makes somebody a victim. :?
Just because you're acquainted with somebody doesn't mean that you can't also be chosen as a victim by other criteria. It's obvious that rape is all about being in control over somebody (physically, socially, mentally), but picking up a victim out of 20 college girls at a party isn't random... The victims are drunk and alone, and sometimes they even have less clothes on. You can change any one of those factors.
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Delilah » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:48 pm

Tero! wrote:If 23% percent of rapes are commited by total strangers, and 10% of those are commited by the guys who you're trying to impress at bars, it's still a 2.3% increase in the risk. If you would like to decrease your risk, you have the option of not showing cleavage in bars to flirt with guys.

I hate to say it to you, but that statistic doesn't say anything about what makes somebody a victim. :?
Just because you're acquainted with somebody doesn't mean that you can't also be chosen as a victim by other criteria. It's obvious that rape is all about being in control over somebody (physically, socially, mentally), but picking up a victim out of 20 college girls at a party isn't random... The victims are drunk and alone, and sometimes they even have less clothes on. You can change any one of those factors.


Which makes going to the bar dressed sexy a rather small risk when you compare it to the all the other much more numerous times in your life that you're alone with someone with a penis.

What the statistic says is that men you know are more likely to rape you. The other criteria that I've seen in my anecdotal experience is:

1. Is related by blood or marriage
2. Lives in the same house
3. Goes to the same church
4. Ugly
5. Pretty
6. Slutty
7. Virgin
8. Drunk
9. Sober
10. Fat
11. Thin
12. Plump
13. Small breasts
14. Large breasts
15. Average breasts
16. Liked the guy
17. Ambivalent about the guy
18. Hated the guy
Etc.

I haven't seen, in my personal experience knowing women and teenagers who have been raped, any inclination towards a particular personality, mode of dress, or recreational activities. Maybe there is some personality type (submissive personality maybe) or wardrobe or even what sports she's most into that influences acquaintance rape, but I wouldn't even know where to begin altering my own life to reduce my risk when I consider the rape victims that I've known. Therefore, I just live my life and be "me" and try not to be unfairly mistrustful, because I can't imagine trying to live like I'm guarding against rape. It would be an awful existence to be afraid all the time.
 
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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Elessar » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:13 pm

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Re: Slutwalk

Postby Elessar » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:54 pm

 
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