9/11 - Ten Years Later

This is the place for topical debate and discussion about anything in the world (non-Queen related).

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby play it cool » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:03 pm

There was an interesting article in the Sunday Times last week about the 'jumpers' - those who could no longer stay in the building and for whom there was only one way out. In it relatives spoke movingly of the decisions that those concerned had made, but also it mentioned that it is a rather controversial subject in the USA, as many considered these people to have commited suicide, and for some that's a sin. The first NY fireman to die was hit by one of these poor souls...
 
play it cool
We Will Rock You
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:56 pm
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby fairydandy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:14 pm

play it cool wrote:but also it mentioned that it is a rather controversial subject in the USA, as many considered these people to have commited suicide, and for some that's a sin.


They innocently went to work one day and they ended up taking a million-to-one chance at life, or being burnt to death. Only a complete lunatic would say that's a 'sin'. That's religion though, it's mostly for nutcases anyway.
 
fairydandy
Somebody To Love
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 8828
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:37 pm
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 449 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Simon » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:26 pm

When confronted with such a horrible and deathly heat, I doubt that those poor people really thought about what they were doing... I cannot believe they decided to jump.
Hard not to see those films again... it's absolutely shocking to see these people tumbling down...
"Or you have it, or you don't!"
 
Simon
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 2481
Images: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:12 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby icy » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:37 pm

Yes, its very very sad. I have hours and hours of video of the day and its aftermath...it broke my heart to watch (some) it earlier.
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16848
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby BackChat » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am

I was a sophomore in high school and I remember the day starting out like it was any other day.
I was in my first class which was world history and after the teacher took attendance one of the
teachers from across the hall came in and said that the World Trade Center was hit by a plane.

She turned on the tv and we saw that the first tower was on fire and not to long after that the second tower was hit. I remember thinking after that happened that WWIII had started. The rest of that day it seemed like time had been slowed down.


My deepest sympathies to anyone who lost someone on that terrible day and to anybody who
lost their loved ones as result of the two wars that have followed.
 
BackChat
Spread Your Wings
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:14 am
Location: St.Louis Missouri
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Kes » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:56 am

Put yourself in that position. Smoke and heat rises, and you are above both. They are on their way to get you, and there IS only one choice. A scary, but painless fall, and a quick "lights out" at the bottom, or hang on in there, choking to death, or getting progressively cooked to death. No contest, sorry.

After that event, I wonder how many people who work in places like the upper floors of the Petronas Towers, now keep what they hope is a functioning parachute in their locker at work. I know I would, and probably a gun to stop any f*cker stealing it, should I ever need to use it.
What is left of your dream?
Just the words on your stone.
A man who learnt how to teach,
But forgot how to learn.
 
Kes
Moderator
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 15044
Images: 747
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am
Location: London, England
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby icy » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:16 am

I am not sure if anyone else read about this a few years back(I forget where and can't look it up at the moment), but a couple jumped instead of staying inside, just in the hopes the loved ones would have bodies to bury etc. It took ages for some bodies to be found and idenified :(.
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16848
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Kes » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:10 pm

In their defence, they didn't know they were going to be getting about 500,000 tons of masonry coming down right behind them. Saying that, neither did anybody else who was hanging around and died at the site, except maybe the people who planned the attack.

Makes you wonder whether being on the roof, and riding the collapse down, would have been survivable. :shock: They came down pretty quick, but nothing like as quick as free-fall terminal velocity. As I understand it, each floor collapsed as the one above it hit it, starting relatively slowly and building up speed as the collapse gained momentum, in so sounding like a progressively accelerating jack hammer.
What is left of your dream?
Just the words on your stone.
A man who learnt how to teach,
But forgot how to learn.
 
Kes
Moderator
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 15044
Images: 747
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am
Location: London, England
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Princess of Taylor » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:27 pm

Kes wrote:In their defence, they didn't know they were going to be getting about 500,000 tons of masonry coming down right behind them. Saying that, neither did anybody else who was hanging around and died at the site, except maybe the people who planned the attack.



One of the first things my boyfriend said that morning was that he wondered what the burning point of steel was and whether the buildings would collapse. Seemed to be a gross oversight that none of the "experts" made that connection.
 
Princess of Taylor
We Will Rock You
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 749
Images: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:06 pm
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Isolde Jane Holland » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:28 pm

Welcome back, Kat, we've missed you up in EB!

Kes, I've had exactly the same thought a million times in the past ten years. A few stupid little $70 army surplus parachutes could have saved hundreds of lives that day. And a 'static line' chute deploys automatically, -you don't even have to pull the ripcord yourself. I'd have several stashed around my office if I worked in a high-rise. Pathetic to think those people were waiting for the helicopters you see buzzing all around the tower to start rescuing people with rope ladders. Lan explained to me that rising heat creates a vortex which would have made that impossible, the helicopter would've crashed; I'm not good with things like vortexes.

The new 'Freedom Tower' has a cement core with five times the heat resistance of the Twin Towers structure. Last night CBS interviewed fourteen people who actually survived the north tower collapsing on top of them; they were all together in stairwell B. They were helping an older lady get down the stairs, which slowed them down, and saved them. Had they made it to the lobby, they would've been crushed.

*In case anyone's wondering 'how low can you go' and still have your chute open, the minimum height for recreational jumps is 2000 feet, but for combat jumps 400-500 feet is common, and base jumpers have made it from 220 feet. (Base jumpers are insane.) The army uses those plain little white chutes that pop open in two seconds, not the elaborate tandem canopy I used when I jumped with Vlad that unfurled with almost balletic stateliness.
 
Isolde Jane Holland
Spread Your Wings
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:15 pm
Location: Stuyvesant Town, NY, USA
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 997 times
Been thanked: 430 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Princess of Taylor » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:59 pm

Thanks! I've been crazy busy with life lately!

And I'm with you on the parachutes. I work on the third floor of an office building and am constantly hounding my boss that we need an emergency escape plan of some sort. If I was on the 86th floor of a building, you could bet your bottom dollar that I'd have something stashed under my desk!
 
Princess of Taylor
We Will Rock You
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 749
Images: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:06 pm
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Kes » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:35 pm

About the physics of it, the twin towers were basically built around their lift shafts. These, as I understand it were the central core of the buildings. When the planes crashed into the towers, they disintegrated fairly quickly, breaching the outer structure on about three or four floors, and the momentum atomised the fuel from the wing tanks, and carried it through those floors. Because the outer structure was of lightweight construction, the initial impact did VERY little damage to the overall building, except maybe sending a massive pressure wave through the affected floors.

The fire: Because you can only burn so much fuel, with so much oxygen, a large portion of this fuel then flooded down stairwells and lift shafts, allowing fires to develop across a greater number of floors. Whether those fires caused a high enough temperature to melt the steel is doubtful, at best, as the temperature needed to melt structural steel is around 1000 degrees C, and it's estimated because it was a fuel rich fire (defined by the colour of the smoke), that it never got above about 750 degrees C. To differentiate, 'temperature' is measurable in degrees, 'heat' is a hybrid between the maximum temperature and the time exposed to it.

The collapse: Best theories I've read, involve the fact that the fires on the relative impact side of the building created a greater sustained heat than those on the opposite side. Metal expands with heat, and a fairly sizeable mismatch between the hotter and not so hotter pieces of the structure, caused buckling which then could not sustain the weight of the building above that point. Because they effectively collapsed from within, dragging the outer structure down behind the core, that's why the demolished footprint was little bigger than the original ground floor footprints.

End result, it wasn't the planes 'per se', that dropped the twin towers, but more crucially the amount of fuel they were carrying, and the effects of that.

You've got to give the planners at least some credit for knowing WTF they were doing, otherwise the sensible thing for the second plane to do was to hit the tower that appeared partially damaged, to finish it off, as it were. I think they'd already done the maths, and knew they didn't need to.
What is left of your dream?
Just the words on your stone.
A man who learnt how to teach,
But forgot how to learn.
 
Kes
Moderator
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 15044
Images: 747
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am
Location: London, England
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Simon » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:48 pm

Did the planners actually know that this all would happen? Do we have proof of this? I mean sending those planes into these buildings is terror enough isn't it?
"Or you have it, or you don't!"
 
Simon
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 2481
Images: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:12 am
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 56 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Kes » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:55 pm

To answer that, you have to take into account which flights they hijacked, and whether they were especially selected. Which the clever money says they were.

The airport security you had to go through, if you were going outside the USA was far greater than for internal flights, and both 767s were for internal flights pretty much coast to coast, and therefore the biggest jets carrying the maximum amount of fuel for the least amount of security. Fuel apart from being an incendiary, also has mass, and every kilogram helps when you're trying to make an impact.

As I said, more was to be gained from definitely flattening one of the towers, than just causing damage to two. On the second jet "not" seeing either tower destroyed, your average suicide bomber would have almost certainly hit the one that was already hurt. Ten times out of ten! If you think Al Qa'ida don't have a structural engineer on their books, I think you underestimate them.
What is left of your dream?
Just the words on your stone.
A man who learnt how to teach,
But forgot how to learn.
 
Kes
Moderator
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 15044
Images: 747
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am
Location: London, England
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: 9/11 - Ten Years Later

Postby Princess of Taylor » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:56 pm

Simon wrote:Did the planners actually know that this all would happen? Do we have proof of this? I mean sending those planes into these buildings is terror enough isn't it?


Whether they knew or not, the terror of actually watching the buildings fall right in front of your own eyes outweighed anything else that had already happened that morning.
 
Princess of Taylor
We Will Rock You
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 749
Images: 2
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:06 pm
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time

PreviousNext

Return to Views Of The World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests