Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:46 am

Elessar wrote:I'm always happy to look at new evidence - as long as it is indeed 'evidence', and not "my neighbour's dog goes to school", "look at these elephants - they look sad so it must be a funeral", "humans are animals too" or "personal experience trumps science". With that in mind...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... awareness/

Very interesting stuff.


I love that they used the mirrors to look at their genitals. How very human of them. :P
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Elessar » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:58 pm

Delilah wrote:
Elessar wrote:I'm always happy to look at new evidence - as long as it is indeed 'evidence', and not "my neighbour's dog goes to school", "look at these elephants - they look sad so it must be a funeral", "humans are animals too" or "personal experience trumps science". With that in mind...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... awareness/

Very interesting stuff.


I love that they used the mirrors to look at their genitals. How very human of them. :P


No, how very animal of us. We're animals as well, you know. Think about that. :P
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:06 pm

Elessar wrote:
Delilah wrote:
Elessar wrote:I'm always happy to look at new evidence - as long as it is indeed 'evidence', and not "my neighbour's dog goes to school", "look at these elephants - they look sad so it must be a funeral", "humans are animals too" or "personal experience trumps science". With that in mind...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... awareness/

Very interesting stuff.


I love that they used the mirrors to look at their genitals. How very human of them. :P


No, how very animal of us. We're animals as well, you know. Think about that. :P


Oh, I did. The "human" part was just me being a smartass. :mrgreen:
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby JLP » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:52 pm

Delilah wrote:
Elessar wrote:I'm always happy to look at new evidence - as long as it is indeed 'evidence', and not "my neighbour's dog goes to school", "look at these elephants - they look sad so it must be a funeral", "humans are animals too" or "personal experience trumps science". With that in mind...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... awareness/

Very interesting stuff.


I love that they used the mirrors to look at their genitals. How very human of them. :P



it is the only way I can see mine these days. :oops:
Come on you Tigers.
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:31 am

JLP wrote:
Delilah wrote:
Elessar wrote:I'm always happy to look at new evidence - as long as it is indeed 'evidence', and not "my neighbour's dog goes to school", "look at these elephants - they look sad so it must be a funeral", "humans are animals too" or "personal experience trumps science". With that in mind...

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... awareness/

Very interesting stuff.


I love that they used the mirrors to look at their genitals. How very human of them. :P



it is the only way I can see mine these days. :oops:


Just sos you know, that gave me the giggles. :lol:
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Dusty » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:05 pm

Not only can some animals communicate, but they can feel, emote and grieve in a way humans understand. Koko the gorilla had a pet kitten that she called All Ball, and in this clip, she learns from her trainer that All Ball was tragically killed in a road accident. Koko's grief and outrage are very recognisable in a way that a human can relate to. Her reaction actually moved me to tears...

 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:32 pm

I'm going to write down all the things that are pure guesswork with no evidence, as I hear them.

"emotional surprise", "loving", "to her the cat looked like a little ball", "adored", "learned one of life's hardest lessons", "heartbroken".

Even if we accept all those things that are dodgy at best, do you really think that the gorilla understood "All Ball's been hit by a car"?

Once again, this is a case of thinking that because we would be sad if our cat died, and the gorilla does something that could look a bit like what we'd do, the gorilla must therefore be sad, or even mourning. Simba looks sad when Mufasa died, but no one would try to claim that the bits of film that he was drawn on felt sorrow.

On the subject of lions and pseudoscientific psychological bullshit, it's impossible not to smile at this video. And difficult not to burst out laughing at the end, where they take things a little bit too far.

 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:00 am

Elessar wrote:I'm going to write down all the things that are pure guesswork with no evidence, as I hear them.

"emotional surprise", "loving", "to her the cat looked like a little ball", "adored", "learned one of life's hardest lessons", "heartbroken".

Even if we accept all those things that are dodgy at best, do you really think that the gorilla understood "All Ball's been hit by a car"?

Once again, this is a case of thinking that because we would be sad if our cat died, and the gorilla does something that could look a bit like what we'd do, the gorilla must therefore be sad, or even mourning. Simba looks sad when Mufasa died, but no one would try to claim that the bits of film that he was drawn on felt sorrow.


I honestly don't get why you find it difficult to imagine another primate species could be capable of thought processes and emotions similar to our own. We're primates, gorillas are primates, surely we've got a thing or two in common evolutionarily-speaking. I don't have any emotional investment in whether or not Koko the gorilla can feel emotions that we could relate to. I don't "want" to believe that Koko was "heartbroken". I just don't find it very hard to comprehend that she could feel an emotion that we have words for in the English language. Yeah, that video could be bullshit, of course it could. It's clearly designed to play on the viewers' human emotions. But given that we have a gorilla here who speaks sign language (she's certainly smarter than her cat was), could she not also experience emotions that a human primate could relate to?
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Dusty » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:23 am

I honestly believe that at least the great primates must be capable of similar understanding to us on an emotive level, otherwise how would we have evolved that characteristic ourselves? Koko was taught a language that she could use to communicate to humans with, and she clearly expressed what she felt with the limited vocabulary she had been taught. Sad, bad, sad, frown. If we had only three words to express our sorrow, I'm sure it would come out in a similar way, and to assume that she didn't understand what had happened to All Ball, when it is clear that she can use sign language to express herself, I just cannot find the adequate words to express my exasperation.

I can only put that down to the insistence that we be at the top of the evolutionary tree, so therefore we must dismiss any other animals' attempt at articulation as 'just a pet animal being taught tricks' because some of us don't like the idea that the animal kingdom can relate to us on a level we can understand, as it would make us feel guilty and uncomfortable whenever we want to tuck into a juicy steak or test makeup on a rabbit.

 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Elessar » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:18 pm

Greywoolfe wrote:I can only put that down to the insistence that we be at the top of the evolutionary tree, so therefore we must dismiss any other animals' attempt at articulation as 'just a pet animal being taught tricks' because some of us don't like the idea that the animal kingdom can relate to us on a level we can understand, as it would make us feel guilty and uncomfortable whenever we want to tuck into a juicy steak or test makeup on a rabbit.


No, once again it's the exact opposite.
We're so certain that we're at the top of the evolutionary tree that the only way any other animal can even begin to compete is by showing that they can do what we can do. Why are humans the ideal that every animal should aspire to be like? Why is a gorilla any less amazing if it isn't actually a giant, hairy human?

It's people who try to turn animals into humans that are missing the point, not the people who accept and celebrate the enormous differences.
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Elessar » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:25 pm

Delilah wrote:I honestly don't get why you find it difficult to imagine another primate species could be capable of thought processes and emotions similar to our own.


Because it's energetically expensive to use 20% of your glucose worrying about things, especially when you can't do anything about it. Language, emotion and tool-use (and I don't mean bending a stick in a bottle) - these things may all exist to a very rudimentary extent in isolation, but by themselves they're not particularly useful. It's only when they're combiend that they have an evolutionary point. Obviously this agrument relies on accepting evolution and natural selection, but surely that's a given?
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Elessar » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:31 pm

Greywoolfe wrote:If we had only three words to express our sorrow, I'm sure it would come out in a similar way, and to assume that she didn't understand what had happened to All Ball, when it is clear that she can use sign language to express herself, I just cannot find the adequate words to express my exasperation.


Oh come on - WE don't even know what happened to All Ball. We have platinum threads pondering that sort of thing. Just think about how complex the thoughts must be to comprehend "All Ball was hit by a car" and, from that and ONLY that (as was shown in the video), to work out that she was dead, not coming back, and this is a sad thing. First you have to know what a car is, then you have to know what happens if something is hit by a car, then you have to know what dead means. I'm not convinced a young child would grasp the significance of "Mummy was hit by a car" without a lot more information being provided.

On an unrelated note, I love how the English translations of her hand gestures always seem to rhyme. Funny, that.
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:05 am

Elessar wrote:
Delilah wrote:I honestly don't get why you find it difficult to imagine another primate species could be capable of thought processes and emotions similar to our own.


Because it's energetically expensive to use 20% of your glucose worrying about things, especially when you can't do anything about it. Language, emotion and tool-use (and I don't mean bending a stick in a bottle) - these things may all exist to a very rudimentary extent in isolation, but by themselves they're not particularly useful. It's only when they're combiend that they have an evolutionary point. Obviously this agrument relies on accepting evolution and natural selection, but surely that's a given?


I don't see how that's a rebuttal of my statement. :P

Gorillas live in social groups. It is a given that intelligent animals in social groups have to "worry" about things sometimes. Like, am I pissing off the big gorilla by trying to mount his woman? Should I hit the baby gorilla for annoying me while it's mother is right here beside me?

Also...evolution isn't perfect. Lots of evolutionary baggage has no clear point and isn't necessarily beneficial. There are side-effects of beneficial traits that aren't so beneficial, but the good outweighs the bad and they get passed on. Using the same tube to breathe with and swallow food down has a clear disadvantage, but it's beneficial in other ways, so it survived. There are better examples, but you get what I mean.
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 am

Elessar wrote:
Greywoolfe wrote:If we had only three words to express our sorrow, I'm sure it would come out in a similar way, and to assume that she didn't understand what had happened to All Ball, when it is clear that she can use sign language to express herself, I just cannot find the adequate words to express my exasperation.


Oh come on - WE don't even know what happened to All Ball. We have platinum threads pondering that sort of thing. Just think about how complex the thoughts must be to comprehend "All Ball was hit by a car" and, from that and ONLY that (as was shown in the video), to work out that she was dead, not coming back, and this is a sad thing. First you have to know what a car is, then you have to know what happens if something is hit by a car, then you have to know what dead means. I'm not convinced a young child would grasp the significance of "Mummy was hit by a car" without a lot more information being provided.

On an unrelated note, I love how the English translations of her hand gestures always seem to rhyme. Funny, that.


I'm betting that the video of explaining the death of the kitty was shortened significantly. Well really, "Sad, cry, frown" could have been her response to another trainer refusing to give her a banana 5 minutes ago. I doubt that she'd get it that quickly too. The video clip was obviously not presented in a scientific manner. It was like a clip from a reality show...just an attempt to play on human emotions and get ratings.
 
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Re: Haiti rescue dogs suffer depression

Postby Delilah » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:37 am

Oh shit, El...evolution in action...we're in trouble now! :mrgreen:

 
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