Dolphins, Horses and Na'vi

This is the place for topical debate and discussion about anything in the world (non-Queen related).

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:51 am

Dusty wrote:
Elessar wrote:Who had 2 in the sweepstake for number of posts before Dusty gets personal?


You've made several baiting comments after our little spat on the religion thread in the hope that I'd have a go back at you, then start this topic off, based on something I said over a year ago to effectively do the same thing and I reply with a link to a two-part documentary series, made by a TV presenter who has degree qualifications in that field that backs my viewpoint up, and I'm being personal?


You've got me. This was all just a trap. My greatest achievement in all this was getting the British Broadcasting Corporation to re-run the story yesterday. Very obliging lot, them journalists.

You need to get over this obsession with qualifications. First you need a psychology degree to discuss ghosts (sorry about how that kind of backfired!), then you need to be a GP to discuss psychiatry (wouldn't a psychiatrist be better?), then you need to be a biochemist to discuss animals...it's all very bizarre.

Here's my criteria: If someone wants to discuss something, they can discuss it, and their argument shall be judged on its content rather than its author.
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Dusty » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:36 am

Elessar wrote:
You've got me. This was all just a trap. My greatest achievement in all this was getting the British Broadcasting Corporation to re-run the story yesterday. Very obliging lot, them journalists.

You need to get over this obsession with qualifications. First you need a psychology degree to discuss ghosts (sorry about how that kind of backfired!), then you need to be a GP to discuss psychiatry (wouldn't a psychiatrist be better?), then you need to be a biochemist to discuss animals...it's all very bizarre.

Here's my criteria: If someone wants to discuss something, they can discuss it, and their argument shall be judged on its content rather than its author.


Dusty wrote:The presenter, Liz Bronnin, has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry as well as a master's degree in wild animal biology-


i believe the second qualification was the more relevant one, but nice try.
You need to get over yourself, and my criteria is this: If someone wants to discuss something, I'll happily do so, but as soon as any remarks come back that can be misinterpreted as personal, be they casual asides about jury service or out-and-out insults, then I'll take my conversations elsewhere, where I am treated with the respect I believe I am entitled to- as is everyone else.
 
Dusty
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:50 am

Here's why the qualification argument does not work:

I've just asked a vet friend what she thinks of the dolphin story. She agrees that it's ridiculous (actually she used the word moronic).

Now we have an awkward situation of having to weigh up a vet vs a biochemist with a research degree. Who wins? Do you count the years of training? Tie. Do you count the number of degrees? Tie. Do you count the number of letters after the name? Depends on the university. If they were men, would you ask them to drop their trousers and measure their penises?

That's basically what the "this expert says" argument boils down to. In an academic capacity (which presenting a BBC documentary is not, and that equally applies to the extremely gifted and incredibly intelligent Prof. Brian Cox), none of these people would disagree with each other. They'd discuss the literature and would conclude that more research needs to be done. I remember the argument being used that Sir David Attenborough has a Zoology degree and therefore elephants do indeed go to funerals, but then when I pointed out a quote by Sir David, in which he said that his shows anthropomorphise animals because it's better entertainment, his qualifications became irrelevant, and pointing them out was an exercise in intellectual snobbery and arrogance.

If you've got some good evidence, then that's great. I'm not going to spend 2 hours watching videos right now, but I probably will eventually. I caught bits of them when they were broadcast on TV - I love that kind of thing. I love animals, they're amazing. But trying to intimidate me into not arguing because the presenter has a research degree from the Institute of Zoology...come on, you can do better than that.


Also, it's interesting that you said "as soon as any remarks come back that can be misinterpreted as personal". Remind me, what does 'misinterpreted' mean?

"Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see"
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:09 pm

Here's a question for eagle-eyed film-goers:

What one plot line in The Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes is utterly ridiculous and doesn't make any sense even within the show's own pseudoscience?
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby AutumnGirlLybbie » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:47 pm

Whatever the nonsense, animals do deserve a lot better from us!!! I'm not going to stand in the way of someone who wants to fight for giving them the same rights as we have.
 
AutumnGirlLybbie
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:35 pm

AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:Whatever the nonsense, animals do deserve a lot better from us!!! I'm not going to stand in the way of someone who wants to fight for giving them the same rights as we have.


I agree with what you're saying, but I think this kind of approach is damaging for two reasons:

1) It won't work. The science is bad, and ultimately these issues get decided in a court. The appeal to stop the badger cull, which Brian attended, was backed up with good science, and that failed. This bad science doesn't stand a chance, and neither does naming killer whales as plaintiffs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16920866). All it will do is provide an easy target for those who want to continue these cruelty practices, and will distract the silent majority from the main issue.

2) It damages scientific integrity. Science already has a bad reputation for being aloof, fickle and trivial, done by arrogant white middle-class men wearing glasses and lab coats, doing silly experiments just to make headlines. The reality couldn't be further from the truth, but the only scientific stories that the media are interested in are the sensational ones. Sensational stories are as rare as hen's teeth in science. Scientific discovery comes from years and years of steady endeavour. Occasional breakthroughs do happen, but they're few and far between. Silly scientific stories like a formula for wrapping the perfect Christmas present, or the perfect female derriere, or how to eat an ice cream do not represent real science. Stories like this dolphin one continue to undermine what real science actually is. And I say again - this story is 11 years old! It's really irresponsible journalism, and the BBC should explain themselves.

The media has a long and shameful history of poor scientific coverage. How many people still believe that the MMR vaccine causes autism? I don't know the exact number, but the answer is 'a lot'. Including many doctors! This is despite the original paper having been discredited, withdrawn from Lancet, and the author struck off the medical register for research fraud. Yet people still believe it! This is almost entirely the media's fault.
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby AutumnGirlLybbie » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:33 pm

Elessar, its never going to happen. Especially in the US. Politicians are too busy passing legislation, forcing evasive medical procedures on pregnant women wanting to have legal abortions, and calling the Girl Scouts radical feminists. When that gets boring theirs always denying gay rights. Trust me, granting animals full rights as humans will never happen!!
But if calling for it, gives treatment of animals a little attention and possibly helps passing some regulations for that, then all the better! But that is as far as it would ever possibly get and realistically there's little hope for even that much.
 
AutumnGirlLybbie
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:02 pm

AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:Elessar, its never going to happen. Especially in the US. Politicians are too busy passing legislation, forcing evasive medical procedures on pregnant women wanting to have legal abortions, and calling the Girl Scouts radical feminists. When that gets boring theirs always denying gay rights. Trust me, granting animals full rights as humans will never happen!!
But if calling for it, gives treatment of animals a little attention and possibly helps passing some regulations for that, then all the better! But that is as far as it would ever possibly get and realistically there's little hope for even that much.


Sadly I think you're right. And as a result, animal rights campaigners will continue to become more marginalised and more desperate, naming whales as plaintiffs and digging up the relatives of animal experimenters as some form of sick protest.

I'm glad that you can appreciate that it's possible to be in favour of animal rights and to be in awe of the animal kingdom while seeing this kind of story as the nonsense that it is. QOL seems to be turning a corner :)
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:37 pm

Last two sentences of the paper that BBC article reports as news (it's from 2001):

"The question of whether dolphins are capable of more complex forms of self-awareness, such as introspection and mental state attribution, remains unanswered. The present findings should motivate further investigation of other indicators of self-awareness."

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/5937.full

Image
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Dusty » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:16 pm

Image

Documentary sez research has bin dun extensivley since 2001.
 
Dusty
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:52 pm

Where are the publications then? I can't find them :(
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby Elessar » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:54 pm

 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby AutumnGirlLybbie » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:29 pm

Elessar wrote:
AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:Elessar, its never going to happen. Especially in the US. Politicians are too busy passing legislation, forcing evasive medical procedures on pregnant women wanting to have legal abortions, and calling the Girl Scouts radical feminists. When that gets boring theirs always denying gay rights. Trust me, granting animals full rights as humans will never happen!!
But if calling for it, gives treatment of animals a little attention and possibly helps passing some regulations for that, then all the better! But that is as far as it would ever possibly get and realistically there's little hope for even that much.


Sadly I think you're right. And as a result, animal rights campaigners will continue to become more marginalised and more desperate, naming whales as plaintiffs and digging up the relatives of animal experimenters as some form of sick protest.

I'm glad that you can appreciate that it's possible to be in favour of animal rights and to be in awe of the animal kingdom while seeing this kind of story as the nonsense that it is. QOL seems to be turning a corner :)



Well I'm not sure that the people doing it might not also see it as nonsense. Sometimes you do have to go way far reaching to get a small point across. I'd like to say that's what the Republicans are doing but I fear they actually do believe in the out-there policies they are trying to push forward.
The governor of New Jersey vetoed the gay marriage bill brought to him. His explanation was that he personally believed that marriage is only between a man and a woman. I find this really annoying. He didn't have to provide any constitutional reasoning for his decision, just his own personal beliefs. This is what is wrong with American politics today. Just like the guy saying the Girl Scouts are a radical feminist group. People are so up in arms about where their tax dollars are going. There is so much controversy about social programs, public schools and public heath. Yet they don't mind at all their tax dollars paying salaries of politicians such as these. I say public policy should be based solely on the Constitution and not someone's personal feelings.
 
AutumnGirlLybbie
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby queenb1656 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:57 pm

Dusty wrote:



Is that good ol' JLP at 50.54 :lol:
 
queenb1656
Spread Your Wings
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:46 pm
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Recycled dolphin story

Postby JLP » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:19 pm

Elessar wrote:Here's a question for eagle-eyed film-goers:

What one plot line in The Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes is utterly ridiculous and doesn't make any sense even within the show's own pseudoscience?


dunno but a guess is the apes become super intellegent having had one dose of the super drug via aerosol?
Come on you Tigers.
 
JLP
Site Admin
 
User avatar

 

Growing old disgracefully

      
 
Posts: 11488
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:33 pm
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 424 times

PreviousNext

Return to Views Of The World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests