Who are you?

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Re: Who are you?

Postby Elessar » Tue May 18, 2010 3:53 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:As you're considering time travelling and wondering whether to take your hydrogen bomb with you?


Well, if you go for the killing your grandfather thing, it's fairly plausible that either you'll fail, possibly dying in the process, or it'll turn out that he was never your grandfather to begin with. You can't succeed, because you didn't succeed.

But there was definitely no hydrogen bomb going off in the UK 30 years ago, and it's pretty difficult for the universe to cancel something like that out, so if you manage to detonate one, I reckon it'd do all sorts of weird physics stuff.

Maybe they should make a TV show with that premise.
 
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue May 18, 2010 3:58 pm

If they did it seems like I wouldn't understand the timeline. :P

Surely it's not just the big stuff that can't be cancelled out though. 30 years ago you weren't there, five minutes ago you were five minutes younger. The smaller stuff might not have huge physics related consequences, but how would you know rather than going back in time, you wouldn't just de-age yourself until you stopped existing, thus preserving your existing up to the point you tried to time travel, but never placing you anywhere you weren't.
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Elessar » Tue May 18, 2010 4:03 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:If they did it seems like I wouldn't understand the timeline. :P

Surely it's not just the big stuff that can't be cancelled out though. 30 years ago you weren't there, five minutes ago you were five minutes younger. The smaller stuff might not have huge physics related consequences, but how would you know rather than going back in time, you wouldn't just de-age yourself until you stopped existing, thus preserving your existing up to the point you tried to time travel, but never placing you anywhere you weren't.


It depends on what the rules are. It's possibly that the rules make it physically impossible to go back in time. It makes sense to me that you can only travel between 'doors' in the space-time continuum, which could only be 'installed' with the correct technology - i.e. if we ever come up with time travel technology, we could only travel forwards, or as far back as the day we invented it.

But if it's possible to go back in time, and we discover it and we do go back in time, then maybe we WERE there 30 years ago? How do we actually know that in 1986 there wasn't a 40 year old guy hanging around in the corridor of the hospital where I was born, witnessing his own birth?

But then, we should have plenty of tourists from the future chilling out in 2010 to see what it was like.
 
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue May 18, 2010 4:08 pm

Maybe we have. If I'd travelled back from 2300, I don't think I'd advertise the fact, they'd know time travel hadn't been invented yet and that if they made that claim people would think they were insane.
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Delilah » Tue May 18, 2010 10:10 pm

Elessar wrote:But then, we should have plenty of tourists from the future chilling out in 2010 to see what it was like.


And what if as soon as you go back in time, you've created that alternate reality that you mentioned previously and thereby create another universe? :P

My theory was always that we clearly will never invent time travel, as no one has shown up from the future yet. I mean, surely they wouldn't all be able to just observe without being caught and somehow exposed. I don't think that it would be too hard for someone to prove themselves. They'd be the only accurate psychic on the face of the earth.
 
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Re: Who are you?

Postby PTRACER » Tue May 18, 2010 10:59 pm

Kes wrote:Now if you're asking "if" all the information could get transferred from your brain to another person, then would they be the same as you, then probably yes, but not for very long. The second they do something you've never done, and learn from it, then what were common paths, will then be progressively diverging.


That was pretty much the story of a Star Trek: TNG episode.
 
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed May 19, 2010 12:43 am

Delilah wrote:
Elessar wrote:But then, we should have plenty of tourists from the future chilling out in 2010 to see what it was like.


And what if as soon as you go back in time, you've created that alternate reality that you mentioned previously and thereby create another universe? :P

My theory was always that we clearly will never invent time travel, as no one has shown up from the future yet. I mean, surely they wouldn't all be able to just observe without being caught and somehow exposed. I don't think that it would be too hard for someone to prove themselves. They'd be the only accurate psychic on the face of the earth.


Well Stephen Hawking seems to think we could, quantum foam, obviously. :P

There could be future people here, I don't think anything anyone ever said would count as proof! In fact I'm pretty sure that throughout history, some (apparent) nutjob has claimed to be from the future regularly, and has never been believed. It's only in reletively recent history you wouldn't be burned for that claim, or maybe time travel is invented so far into the future no one bothers coming this far back. Or maybe people have managed to do it and prove it, but only to trusted people, not a global sort of scale.

Heh, I'm only ever sceptical about "psychics" who have stage shows and charge people, I kinda think if I had that kind of power I'd come up with something more imaginative than a stage show to do with it, preventing future wars, that kind of thing. :P If some random tells me they predicted something though, I think fair enough, maybe they did. :P
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Kes » Wed May 19, 2010 8:41 am

It's back to that old point about "if you stood on the moon, watching a rocket orbit the earth, if the rocket went from static to a speed beyond the speed of light, you'd be seeing an image of the moving one, prior to the last static one". You'd see it with your own eyes, but would you believe it?

Right, earth based physics, not rocket science, even light takes an elapsed time to travel anywhere. This speed is known as 'c', and is approximately 299792.458 km/s. Yes, even though that's a lot of kilometres, the possibility to travel back through time, "HAS" to be related to getting the time elapsed portion of that figure to go to a negative value, so that the distance you travel is actually not over an elapsed time, but actually physically occurring moments before it's happened.

Visa vee, if you travel at a hundred times the speed of light, you are covering 29979245.8 km/s, but even though the distance travelled is a hundred times greater, it's STILL taking you a second of real time to do it. OK, A thousand times? Same kind of scenario, a million times? Yep, it's still consuming time to travel a distance. The whole theory of time travel is based on the speed of light because 'light moving through a vacuum' is the fastest shit we know about. Quantum physics is based in things we don't know about, and scientists aren't really 100% sure of.

So, even if a physicist can explain to me that from a given vantage point in the distance, I can see one thing, before I realise another thing I saw in the same frame that happened before it, it doesn't mean in reality, at the actual scene of the event, that it did.

Am I making sense here?
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Kes » Wed May 19, 2010 9:03 am

Briefly, onto the religious side.

If "X" thousand years ago, some human type lifeform from another planet came here, and had some funky rocket pack to travel round with, then given the understanding of physics of that day, they'd be "seraphims" with wings who could fly down from the heavens (that's "angels" to those who've lost the 'bounce' already). Because of how people must have thought back then, the concept these f*ckers "could" have originated on another planet, wouldn't have even been considered. Plausible theory? Let's be a tad honest and admit it's as plausible as somebody walking on water, or feeding five thousand people with half a dozen mackerel and two Tiger loaves.

If you'd have made a "genie" out of fireworks type gunpowder chemicals in the 1300's, somebody would have had you in a village ducking chair, they were that ignorant. Given this level of understanding, a million and one things could be "another" explanation behind stories in the Christian bible and the Koran.
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Elessar » Wed May 19, 2010 3:16 pm

Kes wrote:It's back to that old point about "if you stood on the moon, watching a rocket orbit the earth, if the rocket went from static to a speed beyond the speed of light, you'd be seeing an image of the moving one, prior to the last static one". You'd see it with your own eyes, but would you believe it?

Right, earth based physics, not rocket science, even light takes an elapsed time to travel anywhere. This speed is known as 'c', and is approximately 299792.458 km/s. Yes, even though that's a lot of kilometres, the possibility to travel back through time, "HAS" to be related to getting the time elapsed portion of that figure to go to a negative value, so that the distance you travel is actually not over an elapsed time, but actually physically occurring moments before it's happened.

Visa vee, if you travel at a hundred times the speed of light, you are covering 29979245.8 km/s, but even though the distance travelled is a hundred times greater, it's STILL taking you a second of real time to do it. OK, A thousand times? Same kind of scenario, a million times? Yep, it's still consuming time to travel a distance. The whole theory of time travel is based on the speed of light because 'light moving through a vacuum' is the fastest shit we know about. Quantum physics is based in things we don't know about, and scientists aren't really 100% sure of.

So, even if a physicist can explain to me that from a given vantage point in the distance, I can see one thing, before I realise another thing I saw in the same frame that happened before it, it doesn't mean in reality, at the actual scene of the event, that it did.

Am I making sense here?


You can of course achieve a sort of pseudo-time travel just by going close to the speed of light. Brian managed it in 39. I worked out the maths once...

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Re: Who are you?

Postby Kes » Wed May 19, 2010 5:59 pm

It still doesn't get around the elapsed time point though. The whole thing about watching this race round the earth at the speed of light, from the moon thingy, only explained that the object would be back at the start point before YOU saw it move. If it actually took 0.008 second to do that, from your vantage point on the moon, you'd catch it's return the elapsed time, ie 0.008 second later, nothing has changed.

Light takes elapsed time to travel ANY distance, even something as small as an inch.

Creating the perception that you haven't moved anything, when in fact it's travelled half a million miles is one thing, putting the same item sat alongside itself, from a different time, is another. One is "physically" possible, in the sense of hard physics theory, the other is in the dreams of these Tefal blokes with the big foreheads.
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed May 19, 2010 6:04 pm

Weren't there a few things missing from that, like you'd have to know the distance travelled?

Kes, in a few thousand years assuming the human race still exist, people then will look back on this time and talk of our "ignorance", just as we do looking back now. Of course there are a million other possible explanations for the stories behind Abrahamic religions, time travel or alien invasion seem a tad farfetched though, when surely we need look no further than "maybe it's all just made up"...for a plausible explanation? :P

I agree in order for a being to physically travel back in time you'd have to be going in negtaive figures, not just travelling a long way really fast, but you can kinda mentally time travel in that sense. Seeing things that happened years ago because the light has taken that long to reach your eyes.
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Kes » Wed May 19, 2010 6:31 pm

Completely. Our same quest for knowledge to save our species, could be the same quest that kills us, only future generations, or a lack of them, will be testament to which way it unfolds.

The "c" part that I mentioned earlier, is an integral part of the formula "Energy equals mass times velocity at the speed of light squared". How that relates to either a nuclear power station, or atomic warhead, is over most of our heads, we only know the whole principle of both is based in that equation E=MC2.

Who knew for sure, that when you released this energy that then split all the hydrogen atoms in the vicinity, that it wouldn't keep on going until it ran out of hydrogen atoms? I personally think someone, somewhere, took a risk with the whole planet, finding out the answer to that one.
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed May 19, 2010 6:49 pm

Well we're certainly reckless enough. "From the evidence, I believe his [man's] wisdom must walk hand in hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a war-like creature who gives battle to everything around him...even himself." - Planet of the Apes. :P
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Re: Who are you?

Postby Elessar » Thu May 20, 2010 1:19 am

Kes wrote:Who knew for sure, that when you released this energy that then split all the hydrogen atoms in the vicinity, that it wouldn't keep on going until it ran out of hydrogen atoms? I personally think someone, somewhere, took a risk with the whole planet, finding out the answer to that one.


I don't understand this paragraph at all...when has that ever happened? Is it even possible?
 
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