Autism

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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:31 pm

You can walk a marathon if you like, it won't change the fact that MMR does not cause autism.
 
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Re: Autism

Postby AutumnGirlLybbie » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:51 pm

Elessar wrote:You can walk a marathon if you like, it won't change the fact that MMR does not cause autism.



I don't think that is what these parents are saying though. I believe the thinking is that the gene is already there but not active until they receive the MMR vaccine. I've also read that it could be the inactive gene plus a combination of multiple vaccines at the same time.

Medical science has never been absolute. Research studies are done and redone all the time with different results constantly. You know , one day eggs are good, then their bad, then too much is bad, or too little is bad... etc... They've spent years telling everyone to stay out of the sun and now their finding people aren't getting enough sun. There are always new environmental factors that cause thinking to change on things.

I agree its very dangerous to not vaccinate children. Diseases they thought were just about gone forever, given another 2 or 3 generations are coming back and that's due to this scare. But I still can't judge these parents harshly because you just don't know what someone is going through until you've been through it yourself.
 
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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:57 pm

AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:
Elessar wrote:You can walk a marathon if you like, it won't change the fact that MMR does not cause autism.



I don't think that is what these parents are saying though. I believe the thinking is that the gene is already there but not active until they receive the MMR vaccine.


There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this view.


AutumnLybbie wrote:I've also read that it could be the inactive gene plus a combination of multiple vaccines at the same time.


There is absolutely no immunological rationale whatsoever behind this theory.


AutumnLybbie wrote:Medical science has never been absolute. Research studies are done and redone all the time with different results constantly. You know , one day eggs are good, then their bad, then too much is bad, or too little is bad... etc...


Not true. One of the key criteria of a good trial is that the results should be replicable.


AutumnLybbie wrote:They've spent years telling everyone to stay out of the sun and now their finding people aren't getting enough sun. There are always new environmental factors that cause thinking to change on things.


Sunlight causes skin cancer; UV light synthesises Vitamin D which is vital in calcium regulation, which is involved in the immune system and bone formation. So sunlight causes cancer; and prevents osteoporosis. Both are true. This is no big deal.


AutumnLybbie wrote:I agree its very dangerous to not vaccinate children. Diseases they thought were just about gone forever, given another 2 or 3 generations are coming back and that's due to this scare. But I still can't judge these parents harshly because you just don't know what someone is going through until you've been through it yourself.


If I had been through it myself, I would be emotionally involved and my judgement would therefore be impaired. I don't necessarily blame Jenny McCarthy - there are plenty of celebrities nutters attached to various causes, and I doubt they've got malicious motivations.

Andrew Wakefield, however, was a medical doctor and should know better. The media should also stop reporting science in the abysmal way that they do. And the medical profession needs to get more PR savvy to stop these scares from happening.
 
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Re: Autism

Postby WeeMann » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:16 pm

Elessar wrote:
AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:I don't think that is what these parents are saying though. I believe the thinking is that the gene is already there but not active until they receive the MMR vaccine.


There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this view.


It'd be interesting to introduce you to Charlie, John's brother. Like I say, I don't know a great deal about the subject, but he's spent his life dealing with this and his view, after watching his brother deteriorate from the day he had the MMR jab and watching his parents do everything they can for him, is exactly as ALG describes it. MMR doesn't cause autism, but he's of the opinion that it seems to activate it in the presence of a certain gene.

As a man of science, do you believe in coincidence? The fact that the autism kicked in immediately after the jab has to be something worth investigating, surely? Is was it just poor timing?
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Re: Autism

Postby WeeMann » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:19 pm

Elessar wrote:You can walk a marathon if you like.


My wife is in two weeks. I'll send you the link and you can sponsor her (in aid of breast cancer research).

/blatant plug
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Re: Autism

Postby LoveToken » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:29 pm

WeeMann,

I hope that your friend's brother's was indeed helped by whatever treatment he received. Indeed, every child responds differently to different treatments, therapies and/or educational programs.





Indeed, raising a child with autism is a challenge. I am sure Jenny McCarthy is well intended. I think it is a good thing that she has brought attention to autism and helped create a discussion.

But, please consider the source and her background when taking her advice.

She is a mother, mother of a child with autism, autism activist, parent advocate, actress, nude model and author. But she is no expert on autism. She is no more of an expert than any of you who might look up autism on the internet and read a few articles or even a few books. It is unfortunate that because of her celebrity, she is bring more attention to her beliefs on "healing" autism and what/who to blame, rather than the fact that science does not support her beliefs. I guess the doctors at the National Institute of Health, etc. aren't cute enough to get on top rated national television variety and talk show programs to present their case in a way that the viewers would find entertaining.

But, this holds true for anything. Just because a celebrity is used in an advertising campaign for a weight loss program, Rx medication, exercise product, etc., it doesn't necessarily mean it works for everyone, if at all. That's really all she is. The celebrity face selling something (even though she really believes in it).

And that's all I'm going to say.


---LT

PS...I might be one of those that are a bit over educated. When I wasn't being a Queen fan, I earned a Bachelor's, 2 Master's Degrees (Special Education & Educational Leadership) and had the title of Autism Consultant/Specialist at a previous job. ;-)
Last edited by LoveToken on Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Autism

Postby AutumnGirlLybbie » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:29 pm

Elessar wrote:
If I had been through it myself, I would be emotionally involved and my judgement would therefore be impaired. I don't necessarily blame Jenny McCarthy - there are plenty of celebrities nutters attached to various causes, and I doubt they've got malicious motivations.




Are you suggesting that parents is incapable of helping their children because their too emotionally involved? Do you have any idea how dangerous that sounds?

I completely disagree. A parent is the one who knows their child best. Nobody, not even a doctor, knows them better. Parents are the best and most important advocate a child has! I can tell from the first sneeze my child has if its allergies, or something more . My sister can tell if her daughter has strep throat long before her throat ever gets soar. I know parents who have children who have seizures. They can tell when one is going to happen several hours before it does! I know and predict better how my son is going to do in school with certain subjects before those educating him do! I am his parent, I know him best!
 
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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:32 pm

AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:
Elessar wrote:
If I had been through it myself, I would be emotionally involved and my judgement would therefore be impaired. I don't necessarily blame Jenny McCarthy - there are plenty of celebrities nutters attached to various causes, and I doubt they've got malicious motivations.




Are you suggesting that parents is incapable of helping their children because their too emotionally involved? Do you have any idea how dangerous that sounds?

I completely disagree. A parent is the one who knows their child best. Nobody, not even a doctor, knows them better. Parents are the best and most important advocate a child has! I can tell from the first sneeze my child has if its allergies, or something more . My sister can tell if her daughter has strep throat long before her throat ever gets soar. I know parents who have children who have seizures. They can tell when one is going to happen several hours before it does! I know and predict better how my son is going to do in school with certain subjects before those educating him do! I am his parent, I know him best!


Do you even know what strep throat means?
 
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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:34 pm

WeeMann wrote:
Elessar wrote:
AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:I don't think that is what these parents are saying though. I believe the thinking is that the gene is already there but not active until they receive the MMR vaccine.


There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this view.


It'd be interesting to introduce you to Charlie, John's brother. Like I say, I don't know a great deal about the subject, but he's spent his life dealing with this and his view, after watching his brother deteriorate from the day he had the MMR jab and watching his parents do everything they can for him, is exactly as ALG describes it. MMR doesn't cause autism, but he's of the opinion that it seems to activate it in the presence of a certain gene.

As a man of science, do you believe in coincidence? The fact that the autism kicked in immediately after the jab has to be something worth investigating, surely? Is was it just poor timing?


It's like saying wedding cake causes pregnancy, because there have been several cases of a woman becoming pregnant soon after eating wedding cake.

The MMR vaccine is given at 13 months; symptoms of autism tend to start at around 14 months and then get progressively worse. It's as simple as that.
 
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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:35 pm

LoveToken wrote:PS...I might be one of those that are a bit over educated. When I wasn't being a Queen fan, I earned a Bachelor's, 2 Master's Degrees (Special Education & Educational Leadership) and had the title of Autism Consultant/Specialist at a previous job. ;-)


Eeek...you're going to regret that self-disclosure I fear! :shock:
 
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Re: Autism

Postby LoveToken » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Elessar wrote:
LoveToken wrote:PS...I might be one of those that are a bit over educated. When I wasn't being a Queen fan, I earned a Bachelor's, 2 Master's Degrees (Special Education & Educational Leadership) and had the title of Autism Consultant/Specialist at a previous job. ;-)


Eeek...you're going to regret that self-disclosure I fear! :shock:



LOL Like I said, I'm done with the subject, here.
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Re: Autism

Postby AutumnGirlLybbie » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:42 pm

Elessar wrote:
AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:
Elessar wrote:
If I had been through it myself, I would be emotionally involved and my judgement would therefore be impaired. I don't necessarily blame Jenny McCarthy - there are plenty of celebrities nutters attached to various causes, and I doubt they've got malicious motivations.




Are you suggesting that parents is incapable of helping their children because their too emotionally involved? Do you have any idea how dangerous that sounds?

I completely disagree. A parent is the one who knows their child best. Nobody, not even a doctor, knows them better. Parents are the best and most important advocate a child has! I can tell from the first sneeze my child has if its allergies, or something more . My sister can tell if her daughter has strep throat long before her throat ever gets soar. I know parents who have children who have seizures. They can tell when one is going to happen several hours before it does! I know and predict better how my son is going to do in school with certain subjects before those educating him do! I am his parent, I know him best!


Do you even know what strep throat means?



Well I can tell you that each time she'd take her to the doctor and the doctor always thought she was wrong but tested her just to humor her. And each time, her daughter tested positive for it at the doctor's astonishment!
 
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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:42 pm

LoveToken wrote:
Elessar wrote:
LoveToken wrote:PS...I might be one of those that are a bit over educated. When I wasn't being a Queen fan, I earned a Bachelor's, 2 Master's Degrees (Special Education & Educational Leadership) and had the title of Autism Consultant/Specialist at a previous job. ;-)


Eeek...you're going to regret that self-disclosure I fear! :shock:



LOL Like I said, I'm done with the subject, here.


No, stay! I need someone knowledgeable and rational to back me up!
 
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Re: Autism

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:48 pm

AutumnGirlLybbie wrote:
Elessar wrote:
Do you even know what strep throat means?



Well I can tell you that each time she'd take her to the doctor and the doctor always thought she was wrong but tested her just to humor her. And each time, her daughter tested positive for it at the doctor's astonishment!


He certainly shouldn't have done that. Testing in the absence of clinical evidence is dangerous, because of the possibility of a false positive, leading to inappropriate prescription of antibiotics, leading to bacterial resistance, ruining it for everyone else.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/2/113

But I guess the answer to my question is that 'strep throat' is just a combination of two words. If you've had it once, you're in a good position to recognise it a second time. But if it rains today, and I correctly predict it will rain tomorrow, that doesn't mean I know better than a meteorologist.
 
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Re: Autism

Postby LoveToken » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:50 pm

Can't. I'm busy with Lost reruns....and being a stepford defending the Queen Extravaganza and Queen's appearance on American Idol. :lol:
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