Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

This is the place for topical debate and discussion about anything in the world (non-Queen related).

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby musicalprostitute » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:18 pm

WeeMann wrote:
musicalprostitute wrote:
WeeMann wrote:The irony being that, despite your protestations to the contrary, your view is a homophobic one. Dress it up however you like, you want to discriminate based on sexuality. There's the irony.

Perhaps we should swap the word "Homophobia" for the term "Sexual discrimination." A rose by any other name...


Absolute bollocks. And not very clever - resorting to accusing me of homophobia is very easy and very cheap.

If my gay friends can converse with me on this subject and not feel I am being homophobic, then your cheap shot means jack-shit.

I have lived and experienced what I am talking about here, so your opinion and vile accusation can take a hike.


I'm not trying to be cheap or clever, but it's very simple - you are basing a decision purely on the fact that a couple are gay (and, I would suggest by reading this and a further post, that you were perhaps bullied growing up in a similar situation?) - that is sexual discrimination. When that discrimination is based on homosexuality it's defined as homophobia.

Adoption criteria are based on whether a couple are suitable parents - sexuality cannot come into the equation, just as hair colour, religious leanings, etc. cannot.

If I'm reading your posts right and you were bullied for your home situation, I am very sorry for you, but that cannot be used as a criteria for all other gay couples to be denied a child and for numerous children to be denied a warm, loving family life.


OK. Maybe you are right. Maybe I have based my opinion on my bad personal experience and that probably isn't right. But I am not in the slightest homophobic, and that really offends me.

I think by discussing this I have realised that I need to rethink my views.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4315
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:20 pm

musicalprostitute wrote:
Look, I understand where you're coming from, and you seem like a really lovely, intelligent, deep individual. I just don't agree with you.

No, I wasn't adopted. My parents divorced when I was young and I went to live with my father (who discovered he was gay whilst married to my mother). He lived with his partner and was quite open about being gay, and it did not take long for other kids to find out. I, personally went through hell because of it. I never loved my father any less, and spent many years of my life standing up against homophobes because of him. I didn't care what he was, he was my father and that's all that mattered. In some ways, I suppose it made me a better person because I grew up very open-minded, but I still wouldn't want another child to go through what I did. Maybe, my opinion is based too much on my personal experience, and maybe that's something I need to sort out.

As for the growing up in care question - I can see your point on this, and maybe, on reflection, I have been too harsh.


I have no problem at all with you disagreeing. I don't believe you're homophobic and I do think, that there's a big difference between arguing about the fairness of laws on individuals involved, than making homophobic statements.

It did sound somewhat homophobic because of it being specifically gay people and not anyone who increases the chances of their child being bullied - which is a very broad spectrum.

I hope you don't mind me saying so but when I asked, I suspected something along those lines was your situation. I can imagine you did go through hell and naturally you wouldn't think it an ideal situation for a child to grow up in. That is inarguable. From an entirely clinical perspective, the best situation for children would be to grow up with clone parents so that none of them could be singled out. In the absence of that option, there are certain groups of people who we just know are likely to lead to bullying a gay couples are among them, it's tragic, but it's true.

Personally I just don't believe for a second that this is worse than growing up in care. I've always believed a loving family, regardless of any hardships they might encounter, is far preferable to that option. I can't imagine what kids must go through being just part of a necessary system, not loved by any one in particular.
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


Image
 
Belle Leisha
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

I'm a Restless Kinda Girl, There's No Turning Back Now!

      
 
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby musicalprostitute » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:21 pm

I would just like to say to all of you posting in this thread that I have realised that I have maybe come over as too harsh. It is only by reading certain comments and responding to those comments that I have realised that I have based my argument on personal experience, and that is not right.

Apologies to anyone I may have offended.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4315
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby icy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:22 pm

musicalprostitute...you should give people more credit than what you are. People are working to erase homophobia in many ways. children should not be adopted by by gay parents because of possible bullying, and you calling it selfish is one of the worst things I've read on this board.
It's a form of discrimination in itself, and it hurts to know anyone here has those views. I hope they have changed in the last few pages because of what others have posted.
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16848
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:24 pm

icy wrote:musicalprostitute...you should give people more credit than what you are. People are working to erase homophobia in many ways. children should not be adopted by by gay parents because of possible bullying, and you calling it selfish is one of the worst things I've read on this board.
It's a form of discrimination in itself, and it hurts to know anyone here has those views. I hope they have changed in the last few pages because of what others have posted.


Hey hang on that's a bit harsh too. There have been waaaaaaaay worse things said on this board that that! They were arguing about 6-1 and did so without getting angry or making personal comments, despite several made against them and as he/she(?) has said their views are based on personal experience and maybe too harsh, you should given them a break.
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


Image
 
Belle Leisha
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

I'm a Restless Kinda Girl, There's No Turning Back Now!

      
 
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:02 am
Location: Birmingham, UK
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby musicalprostitute » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
musicalprostitute wrote:
Look, I understand where you're coming from, and you seem like a really lovely, intelligent, deep individual. I just don't agree with you.

No, I wasn't adopted. My parents divorced when I was young and I went to live with my father (who discovered he was gay whilst married to my mother). He lived with his partner and was quite open about being gay, and it did not take long for other kids to find out. I, personally went through hell because of it. I never loved my father any less, and spent many years of my life standing up against homophobes because of him. I didn't care what he was, he was my father and that's all that mattered. In some ways, I suppose it made me a better person because I grew up very open-minded, but I still wouldn't want another child to go through what I did. Maybe, my opinion is based too much on my personal experience, and maybe that's something I need to sort out.

As for the growing up in care question - I can see your point on this, and maybe, on reflection, I have been too harsh.


I have no problem at all with you disagreeing. I don't believe you're homophobic and I do think, that there's a big difference between arguing about the fairness of laws on individuals involved, than making homophobic statements.

It did sound somewhat homophobic because of it being specifically gay people and not anyone who increases the chances of their child being bullied - which is a very broad spectrum.

I hope you don't mind me saying so but when I asked, I suspected something along those lines was your situation. I can imagine you did go through hell and naturally you wouldn't think it an ideal situation for a child to grow up in. That is inarguable. From an entirely clinical perspective, the best situation for children would be to grow up with clone parents so that none of them could be singled out. In the absence of that option, there are certain groups of people who we just know are likely to lead to bullying a gay couples are among them, it's tragic, but it's true.

Personally I just don't believe for a second that this is worse than growing up in care. I've always believed a loving family, regardless of any hardships they might encounter, is far preferable to that option. I can't imagine what kids must go through being just part of a necessary system, not loved by any one in particular.


Thank you for responding with such fairness and intelligence. Discussing this with you and reading your decent opinions has made me look at things differently. I have based my argument on personal experience, and - as I have posted elsewhere - that is not right.

I am not afraid to say that maybe I am wrong, and that maybe I need to have a rethink concerning my opinion on this.

I hope I have not offended you too much. :)
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4315
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby musicalprostitute » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:30 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
icy wrote:musicalprostitute...you should give people more credit than what you are. People are working to erase homophobia in many ways. children should not be adopted by by gay parents because of possible bullying, and you calling it selfish is one of the worst things I've read on this board.
It's a form of discrimination in itself, and it hurts to know anyone here has those views. I hope they have changed in the last few pages because of what others have posted.


Hey hang on that's a bit harsh too. There have been waaaaaaaay worse things said on this board that that! They were arguing about 6-1 and did so without getting angry or making personal comments, despite several made against them and as he/she(?) has said their views are based on personal experience and maybe too harsh, you should given them a break.


Thank you, Bella. I appreciate your post. Even more so because you and I did not agree originally - that tells me what a decent, open-minded soul you are. :)
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4315
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby icy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:31 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
icy wrote:musicalprostitute...you should give people more credit than what you are. People are working to erase homophobia in many ways. children should not be adopted by by gay parents because of possible bullying, and you calling it selfish is one of the worst things I've read on this board.
It's a form of discrimination in itself, and it hurts to know anyone here has those views. I hope they have changed in the last few pages because of what others have posted.


Hey hang on that's a bit harsh too. There have been waaaaaaaay worse things said on this board that that! They were arguing about 6-1 and did so without getting angry or making personal comments, despite several made against them and as he/she(?) has said their views are based on personal experience and maybe too harsh, you should given them a break.

I did say one of the worst things :P.
I think things like this is a slippery slope, and I'm relived the views/way of thinking have changed a bit in the last few posts. I was hoping it would down the line, but to see it happen so quickly is a credit to the place and it's posters. No, I don't include myself in that.
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16848
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby WeeMann » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:40 pm

musicalprostitute wrote:I would just like to say to all of you posting in this thread that I have realised that I have maybe come over as too harsh. It is only by reading certain comments and responding to those comments that I have realised that I have based my argument on personal experience, and that is not right.

Apologies to anyone I may have offended.


I can't speak for others, but your views haven't offended me. I do think they shocked me to a certain extent, but I'm under no illusions that everyone else will have the same views as me on anything.

On the same note, I wasn't out to offend you with my comments - my aim was to make you see how others were viewing your comments. Apologies if you have taken offence.

Again, I can't speak for everyone else, but I do find it heartening when people can see why others have a certain point of view and don't just get stroppy (as happens way too often on this board!). I don't know whether you'll reach the point where you totally agree with our views, but perhaps it you may start to see wider view than, perhaps, your history was allowing.

To counter your main worry about bullying (and I appreciate that it can cause very serious problems), some people do grow up to be stronger through having been bullied. I was bullied at school, being the short one with national health glasses. It taught me to stand up for myself. I'm not a physical person, but I can fight back verbally now far better than I used to be able to. Look for the silver lining.
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a post, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
 
WeeMann
Moderator
 
User avatar

 

Not even on the B list...

      
 
Posts: 6489
Images: 103
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:37 pm
Location: Shropshire
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby musicalprostitute » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:58 pm

WeeMann wrote:
musicalprostitute wrote:I would just like to say to all of you posting in this thread that I have realised that I have maybe come over as too harsh. It is only by reading certain comments and responding to those comments that I have realised that I have based my argument on personal experience, and that is not right.

Apologies to anyone I may have offended.


I can't speak for others, but your views haven't offended me. I do think they shocked me to a certain extent, but I'm under no illusions that everyone else will have the same views as me on anything.

On the same note, I wasn't out to offend you with my comments - my aim was to make you see how others were viewing your comments. Apologies if you have taken offence.

Again, I can't speak for everyone else, but I do find it heartening when people can see why others have a certain point of view and don't just get stroppy (as happens way too often on this board!). I don't know whether you'll reach the point where you totally agree with our views, but perhaps it you may start to see wider view than, perhaps, your history was allowing.

To counter your main worry about bullying (and I appreciate that it can cause very serious problems), some people do grow up to be stronger through having been bullied. I was bullied at school, being the short one with national health glasses. It taught me to stand up for myself. I'm not a physical person, but I can fight back verbally now far better than I used to be able to. Look for the silver lining.


Thanks for that, WeeMann. It is good to be able to discuss things - sometimes controversial - and get different feedback. And, you're right about people getting stroppy - it doesn't help the progress of discussion at all. I'm glad I haven't offended you - that was not my intention at all; I just wanted to throw the subject out there, but then realised that I was too personally affected by it to see with clarity.

I'm sorry to hear you were bullied at school, too. I'm not a big fighter myself - never saw the point in it really; doesn't really get you anywhere. I'm bloody good at taking a punch though (well, I used to be!) :lol:
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4315
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby icy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:59 pm

I was hurt, I admit, because as I posted if not for my circumstances I would be looking into adoption.
It really is a credit to musicalprostitute other views are willing to be looked at, for that I am both relived and thankful. I know my views took quite a bit of time to change, I'm a stubborn one!
Kudos to you musicalproustite and I'm very sorry you went through that bullying. I hope I didn't come across as bullying you here. If so, I'm very sorry.
Peace?
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16848
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby musicalprostitute » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:07 pm

icy wrote:I was hurt, I admit, because as I posted if not for my circumstances I would be looking into adoption.
It really is a credit to musicalprostitute other views are willing to be looked at, for that I am both relived and thankful. I know my views took quite a bit of time to change, I'm a stubborn one!
Kudos to you musicalproustite and I'm very sorry you went through that bullying. I hope I didn't come across as bullying you here. If so, I'm very sorry.
Peace?


Peace for sure, Icy. And, no, you didn't come across as bullying, so no need to apologise. :)

And thanks for having the decency to post what you just have.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4315
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby icy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:40 pm

Thank you for willing to take heed of what others have been saying here. :bigups:.
You remind me of the time I ranted about the death penalty, and it took JLP and a case he mentioned to make me see sense. After a while I did change my views. Most people here know how stubborn/silly I can be, so it didn't take it overnight to have it changed, but that remains a very bittersweet time for me on the board.
I'm truly sorry you were bullied.
Thanks again.
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16848
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby play it cool » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:56 pm

I haven't gone through the whole thread, and am just responding to the first post. I'm not going into specifics but I have first hand experience of the adoption process. The bottom line is this as far as I'm concerned:

There are far too many kids still in the care system in desperate need of a loving home in which to thrive. It should be up to the social services to decide if a couple are suitable to adopt based on what they've got to offer as parents, rather then whether they are gay, or poor, or fat, or a single parent etc. By having such parameters (as they certainly have done in the past) more kids stay in the care system where they become much more vulnerable. These kids just need a loving environment.
 
play it cool
We Will Rock You
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 901
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:56 pm
Gender: None specified
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Should Gay People Be Allowed To Adopt?

Postby lord of all darkness » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:27 pm

play it cool wrote:I haven't gone through the whole thread, and am just responding to the first post. I'm not going into specifics but I have first hand experience of the adoption process. The bottom line is this as far as I'm concerned:

There are far too many kids still in the care system in desperate need of a loving home in which to thrive. It should be up to the social services to decide if a couple are suitable to adopt based on what they've got to offer as parents, rather then whether they are gay, or poor, or fat, or a single parent etc. By having such parameters (as they certainly have done in the past) more kids stay in the care system where they become much more vulnerable. These kids just need a loving environment.


/end thread.

Well said, nailed it better than i could.
BAN them!
 
lord of all darkness
We Will Rock You
 
User avatar

 

You are a pussy! I said show me your war face!

      
 
Posts: 561
Images: 1
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:41 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia = where it's warm and sunny.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 11 times

PreviousNext

Return to Views Of The World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests