Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:42 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
TheHero wrote:
Belle Leisha wrote:I'm not sure Plato deserved that utter misuse of his work.


I wouldn't call it utter misuse, but if you can find a better way to explain his work, then I am sure everyone would appreciate it.


Blimey, I don't think there are any scholars in history who can properly explain Plato's work. I meant misuse as in using the cave, which is very simply explaining we accept the reality of the world we live in, all of us, to back up this bizarre argument.


Yeah, I mean surely we're all in the cave? (Is there an apt Oscar Wilde quote there?)
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:01 am

In fact Plato's cave is curriculum at any University. Plato is trying to tell us that we must have in the back of our minds, that things aren`t always what they seem to be. We could be living in a cave indeed, well not literally a cave, thought it was unnecessary to explain that.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:12 am

TheHero wrote:In fact Plato's cave is curriculum at any University. Plato is trying to tell us that we must have in the back of our minds, that things aren`t always what they seem to be. We could be living in a cave indeed, well not literally a cave, thought it was unnecessary to explain that.


I'm not sure where the implication that it's a University course comes from. Surely either everyone is in the cave, or no one is. It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to convince oneself that someone at a University is living in the cave, while others are outside, looking in on this cave-dweller, wondering how he can be so ignorant of the outside world.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:41 am

Elessar wrote:
TheHero wrote:In fact Plato's cave is curriculum at any University. Plato is trying to tell us that we must have in the back of our minds, that things aren`t always what they seem to be. We could be living in a cave indeed, well not literally a cave, thought it was unnecessary to explain that.


I'm not sure where the implication that it's a University course comes from. Surely either everyone is in the cave, or no one is. It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to convince oneself that someone at a University is living in the cave, while others are outside, looking in on this cave-dweller, wondering how he can be so ignorant of the outside world.



When I studied at University, we had to pass a test in philosophy. I have studied philosophy for half a year.


Cut `n paste from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

Plato 424/423 BC[a] – 348/347 BC) was a Classical Greek philosopher, mathematician, student of Socrates, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the Western world. Along with his mentor, Socrates, and his student, Aristotle, Plato helped to lay the foundations of Western philosophy and science.[3] In the words of A. N. Whitehead:

"Platonism" is a term coined by scholars to refer to the intellectual consequences of denying, as Socrates often does, the reality of the material world. In several dialogues, most notably the Republic, Socrates inverts the common man's intuition about what is knowable and what is real. While most people take the objects of their senses to be real if anything is, Socrates is contemptuous of people who think that something has to be graspable in the hands to be real.

Socrates's idea that reality is unavailable to those who use their senses is what puts him at odds with the common man, and with common sense. Socrates says that he who sees with his eyes is blind, and this idea is most famously captured in his allegory of the cave, and more explicitly in his description of the divided line. The allegory of the cave (begins Republic 7.514a) is a paradoxical analogy wherein Socrates argues that the invisible world is the most intelligible ("noeton") and that the visible world ("(h)oraton") is the least knowable, and the most obscure.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:47 am

Anyone can call themselves a philosopher though. All they have to do is love thinking.
You can become a Master of Philosophy just by arguing that free will is an illusion (and providing some fairly flimsy evidence for it with a pair of kitchen scales).
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:51 am

Elessar wrote:Anyone can call themselves a philosopher though. All they have to do is love thinking.
You can become a Master of Philosophy just by arguing that free will is an illusion (and providing some fairly flimsy evidence for it with a pair of kitchen scales).


And everyone can become a realist: Monkey see, monkey do..
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:53 am

TheHero wrote:
Elessar wrote:Anyone can call themselves a philosopher though. All they have to do is love thinking.
You can become a Master of Philosophy just by arguing that free will is an illusion (and providing some fairly flimsy evidence for it with a pair of kitchen scales).


And everyone can become a realist: Monkey see, monkey do..


Monkey pee all over you.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:58 am

Elessar wrote:
TheHero wrote:
Elessar wrote:Anyone can call themselves a philosopher though. All they have to do is love thinking.
You can become a Master of Philosophy just by arguing that free will is an illusion (and providing some fairly flimsy evidence for it with a pair of kitchen scales).


And everyone can become a realist: Monkey see, monkey do..


Monkey pee all over you.


over you, or in your pants, that is your only chance.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:01 am

Elessar wrote:You can become a Master of Philosophy just by arguing that free will is an illusion (and providing some fairly flimsy evidence for it with a pair of kitchen scales).


I say flimsy evidence. Evidence of a build-up in force applied by the fingers in response to a visual stimulus starting before the median time taken to make a decision is reasonable evidence of accumulating cerebral decision signals that consciousness is unaware of, which kind of implies that our decision-making and our consciousness are separate processes, and that our consciousness therefore has no input into decision-making and that therefore free will is an illusion. It's already been shown with EEGs (Kornhuber et al) but it was cool to show that even the actual muscles probably start doing stuff before we realise it.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:09 am

Yes, life is full of wonders.. who knows, maybe we are nothing more than programmed, advanced robots. I hope not.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:37 am

Lino wrote:the man from the Roswell post mortem woke up and attacked the probe??

let's hope for thrilling news.



Curiosity shoot photos and take samples of the ground and analyze it..

Considering the financial crises + the hysteria around 2012, doomsday etc., an earthshaking discovery on Mars would probably not be the wisest thing to announce right now, so if they did find something, they would probably calm people down, saying it was nothing.

I don`t know what to think... but I choose to trust them for telling the truth, that they actually did not find anything earthshaking after all, it was all just a huge misunderstanding that got hyped by the media.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Belle Leisha » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:41 pm

TheHero wrote:
Elessar wrote:
TheHero wrote:In fact Plato's cave is curriculum at any University. Plato is trying to tell us that we must have in the back of our minds, that things aren`t always what they seem to be. We could be living in a cave indeed, well not literally a cave, thought it was unnecessary to explain that.


I'm not sure where the implication that it's a University course comes from. Surely either everyone is in the cave, or no one is. It would take a lot of mental gymnastics to convince oneself that someone at a University is living in the cave, while others are outside, looking in on this cave-dweller, wondering how he can be so ignorant of the outside world.



When I studied at University, we had to pass a test in philosophy. I have studied philosophy for half a year.


Well done you. I know exactly what the Cave is, I also know that I'm not nearly arrogant enough to assume I know beyond the very obvious, what Plato's full works mean. The Cave doesn't need to be curriculum anyway, it's basically pop culture, especially given The Matrix. Assuming you know more than anyone else, is surely part of what Plato warned against!
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Belle Leisha wrote:
Well done you. I know exactly what the Cave is, I also know that I'm not nearly arrogant enough to assume I know beyond the very obvious, what Plato's full works mean. The Cave doesn't need to be curriculum anyway, it's basically pop culture, especially given The Matrix. Assuming you know more than anyone else, is surely part of what Plato warned against!



Well done YOU!

WHERE did I write that I know more than anyone else ?? You have obviously misunderstood everything! Find where I wrote that I know more than anyone else, and I will call you a genius from this day on...

You are wrong AGAIN! The cave was curriculum at the University. An obligatory part of the education. I had to read several hundred pages of theory. Certainly not pop culture.

Plato was warning about that yes, and that is exactly why I explained it for Elessar, who is arrogant and making fun of his theories.. He is the kind of realist that Plato warned about. That was the reason I brought up the cave in the first place, to show that they don`t know everything, just because everything is impossible to know..

So don`t mess things up here, I have spent hours on this, to prove that they don`t know everything, just because they have a realistic approach to things..
Last edited by TheHero on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:26 pm

I don't remember making fun of Plato's theories.
 
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Re: Interesting news from Mars to be announced by NASA soon

Postby TheHero » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:28 pm

Elessar wrote:I don't remember making fun of Plato's theories.


Here:

Elessar wrote:
Anyone can call themselves a philosopher though. All they have to do is love thinking.
You can become a Master of Philosophy just by arguing that free will is an illusion (and providing some fairly flimsy evidence for it with a pair of kitchen scales).
 
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