Margaret Thatcher

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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:26 pm

Subjective.

You could look back at pre-war politics and say that the governments of the thirties very nearly left us defenceless, when it was fairly obvious that Hitler was building up something very menacing.

In the end, under better leadership, the country dug deep, and survived.

As I said, a prime-ministerial term is largely decided by what happens around it, and pre-Thatcher we had three day weeks, miner's strikes, and power rationing. Living through that was far worse as far as I was concerned than anything the Tories did. Her management of the Falklands was far better than anything her labour predecessors had done. So, I think your viewpoint is possibly based on someone else's memory, and not either mine, or your own.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:50 pm

It doesn't matter what your personal politics are, every government will do stuff that either pleases or pisses off the electorate, and very few of them ever piss off ALL the people, ALL the time.

In your case, you have reason to sway towards the socialist side of things. In my case, I sway towards the side that believes that to draw on a system, you must first have shown intention towards supporting it. I think that's what's inherently wrong with the UK, and why the French see Sangatte as such a small problem, it's merely a transit camp for people wanting to come to the land of milk, honey, and an easily exploitable benefits system.

Pan Cameron all you want, but I saw a report last month that said the previous month was the first in nearly five years where more Polish passport holders left the UK, than entered it.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby JLP » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:25 pm

Kes wrote:Subjective.

You could look back at pre-war politics and say that the governments of the thirties very nearly left us defenceless, when it was fairly obvious that Hitler was building up something very menacing.

In the end, under better leadership, the country dug deep, and survived.

As I said, a prime-ministerial term is largely decided by what happens around it, and pre-Thatcher we had three day weeks, miner's strikes, and power rationing. Living through that was far worse as far as I was concerned than anything the Tories did. Her management of the Falklands was far better than anything her labour predecessors had done. So, I think your viewpoint is possibly based on someone else's memory, and not either mine, or your own.


some of that though was under Heath. It was the miners who are thought to have brought him down. Hence Maggie's determination to beat then in 1984-5.

Andrew Marr thinks she was a fortunate Prime Minister. In 1981, she was more or less universally hated. Then came the Falklands. Ironically, pre 2003 Blair was more or less universally loved, then came Iraq.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby mab » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:51 pm

JLP wrote:
Kes wrote:Subjective.

You could look back at pre-war politics and say that the governments of the thirties very nearly left us defenceless, when it was fairly obvious that Hitler was building up something very menacing.

In the end, under better leadership, the country dug deep, and survived.

As I said, a prime-ministerial term is largely decided by what happens around it, and pre-Thatcher we had three day weeks, miner's strikes, and power rationing. Living through that was far worse as far as I was concerned than anything the Tories did. Her management of the Falklands was far better than anything her labour predecessors had done. So, I think your viewpoint is possibly based on someone else's memory, and not either mine, or your own.


some of that though was under Heath. It was the miners who are thought to have brought him down. Hence Maggie's determination to beat then in 1984-5.

Andrew Marr thinks she was a fortunate Prime Minister. In 1981, she was more or less universally hated. Then came the Falklands. Ironically, pre 2003 Blair was more or less universally loved, then came Iraq.


The difference being the Falklands, in the eyes of the general public, was a just - defensive - war. The Iraq war was, and still is, seen as an unjust - aggressive - war.
 
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:27 pm

Couldn't agree more.

Both the Falklands conflict and Gulf War 1 were defence actions and reclaimations of Sovereign Territory. Gulf War 2 was totally different as it was an act of aggression against a nation recognised by the United Nations. What Bush and Blair did there, was no better (and no different) than Saddam did with Kuwait.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Belle Leisha » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:48 pm

It is subjective, because people have different priorities, for instance I don't care whether more Polish people are leaving the UK than entering it. Immigration is only an issue, because of other, broader issues, housing, employment, health, etc. Thatcher was nothing more than a puppet to a brutal administration who defeated the last successful stand of people against the more obviously brutal side of capitalism. She was a sign of things to come. It's not someone else's memory, it's history. How you interpret it is of course, subjective, I seem to remember giving a presentation on Lenin to my A Level history class and being told off it hadn't all been bad. :P

To me it comes down to very simple evidence though. I don't "pan cameron" for fun, but because he has made it basically impossible for adults with severe learning difficulties to have any kind of quality of life, for parents of disabled kids to face having to put their child in care, for severely ill people to have their benefits cut off and the resulting harm be blamed on the ever elusive scroungers, as though the country was run on playground law, naughty Billy Scrounger has ruined playtime for everyone else. For the NHS to be gradually sold off, via the backdoor, as Thatcher proved a direct attack wouldn't go down well. For kids to face ridiculous fees for Higher Education, as opposed to tougher entry requirements. For poorer college kids to receive no financial support at all. For young people out of work to be forced into 40 hour a week 'work experience' placements for their £70 JSA, for REMPLOY to be close down...the List goes on and the deficit remains. Food banks have opened up in my city...this is a first world country, food banks. I don't know how else to interpret any of this, if not that there's something very wrong in our system.

It's not the Tories, or the Lib Dems, and as most councils are now Labour run, it's them putting the cuts through too. It's system rotten to the core, and it will never get any better. Capitalism can only self destruct, in the end.

All in all, I consider Thatcher a minor point. :P
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:19 pm

An old saying my maths teacher taught me.

"Believe nothing you read, and only half of what you see with your own eyes"

It basically says to me, that what you witness personally, holds higher value over believing something someone else has written. It's probably the most profound piece of advice I've ever been given, if I'm being honest, and it's why I don't hold reviews by other people on music in that high esteem. How the f*ck do they think they know what I might like?

If you read a piece that says Thatcher's government was akin to the Nazi party, then you've read it. It doesn't mean you've any experience of it being so. It's like me saying Britain was really shit when the great plague was going down, I can't say that because I wasn't there at the time, so I have NO perspective, let alone a balanced one, so I can only presume it must have been.

I'm not a coal miner. I've never been on strike, but have had to play at being a fireman, because they went on strike. Although I might empathise with conditions why a workforce "might" want to strike, I've never come across a condition where management were so pig ignorant of working relationships that it might have been necessary.

The actual end result of the Tories closing pits, is that in 100 years when there aren't any fossil fuels left, we might still have some resources worth restarting mining for. If they'd have kept them open, then most of Britain would be stood on stilts awaiting an earthquake to swallow it up.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Belle Leisha » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:20 am

And the day I say that living under Thatcher's Government was like, x, that will be a good point. But an argument you can't have views on anything you weren't there for, doesn't stand up, beyond that. Partly, because then nobody under 70 is allowed condemn the holocaust, for example, and partly, because if anything, hindsight is often a very valuable tool, especially when it comes to political history.

I don't know how the miners felt, during the miners strike, although I do know the actual end result was considerably more human, than what resources we might be mining for in future. I know how workers in poor conditions feel now, especially when condemned for going on strike. I've stood with many of them, I was standing on a picket line a 7am one day when a guy went past on a bike and shouted "get back to work you lazy C****"...which is nice. Given he was still in transit and the strikers had been there for hours, is a bit of a cheek but whatever. I know that as they lost their wages every time, and didn't get so much as a day off out of it, that they very much consider it necessary.

I didn't actually believe that the Tories could be as bad as legend has it, until this Government though. It sounded a bit Bond Villain-esque to me. Then as I say, they cut disability benefits for residential care patients and the disgusting result of that, I have very much seen with my own eyes. It's not actually just mad lefties, who think we could probably do without Thatcher/Cameron's view of the greater good.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby pow wow » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:53 am

I'd say Belle and people of her generation can actually take a more balanced view of the Thatcher years than those of us who lived through it. It's all there in black and white without the emotional attachment.

Thatcher was, as the Tories are now, an abomination. Why when the country at the time was NOT in such a financial mess did she leave the inner cities to rot, the schools to leak, the unemployment list to soar, inflation/intrest rates to rocket, the hospital waiting lists to burst etc. At least Labour spent what we had on what needed to be done. Cameron's lot are even worse as predicted. I'm totally fed up with their divide and conquer politics and even sadder that people buy it.

Kes are you alluding to the fact that there are more Polish people leaving than arriving as a Cameron immigration policy success? That's crap. The fall in the numbers is because of lack of jobs and wages being driven down to the point were its no longer viable for them to stay. That comes straight from the horses mouth from a couple of Polish folk I know.

Is Thatcher still getting a state funeral? I object to paying for it!
 
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:01 am

I'll completely agree that it's the political climate affecting immigration.

Before I get a bad press of being anti-immigration, I'd better clarify why I think Britain has been a particular attraction to people from countries like Poland.

Unfortunately, a by-product of the last administration borrowing money to meet the shortfall between money coming in and money going out, was a kind of insurance policy for people looking to migrate here to work for a better life. It's no accident that they didn't decide to stop in Germany or France, as their welfare systems are more or less wholly dependent on only getting money out of the state, if you've put some in.

As regards Thatcher and a state funded funeral, like most countries, being once the head of government, affords with it a lifetime of special treatment and protection by the state. Ever since she was elected Prime Minister, she has had her own little team of people looking after her, all paid for by the taxpayer. A lot of people were very unhappy when Churchill had a state funeral, but that's what you get when you've led the country through multiple terms of government.

Whether we individually like her or not, the electorate put her in office, more than once.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:54 am

I guess I'd better put across my perspective, so at very least people understand how I got there.

My parents were very staunch labour supporters, but brought us up to weigh up our own situations, and make decisions accordingly. Yeah, we used to get comments like Thatcher, Thatcher, the milk snatcher flying round the house, just to help sway the balance. I guess my political awareness got raised when I joined the forces, as historically up to that point, Labour were the defence cut party. However, due to a move made by Labour while they were in office, servicemen's votes became useless following a community in Wales getting a Tory MP, when 85% of the local covilians had voted Labour, and the local base's servicemen and women had swung the result. From that point on, if you were in the forces, your vote went towards the grand total, and not towards a particular MP, which as we all know is what decides who gets in power. For that reason I refused to vote until I left the forces, and for most of the time since then, I've voted Liberal, such is my dislike of BOTH the major parties.

That's why I can say that both Blair and Thatcher had their ups and downs, and that I don't particularly dislike, or like either. They were people who gained political prominence, and then had a job to do, doing what they thought was the best plan to retain their jobs.

If I have a particular dislike of Milliband over Cameron, it is purely down to Labour taking the "opposition party" role towards the phrase "seemingly just being contrary for the sake of it" party, and not being man enough to admit that at the point they left office, they were only compounding the problem that "needed" fixing. I don't really care if Cameron and Clegg are doing it right, but at least they are trying to do "something" about it, that doesn't involve planting their heads in the sand and carrying on borrowing way in excess of what they can't afford to pay back.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:52 am

Like most people, I don't object to people getting benefits who genuinely deserve them.

What I object to though, is the climate that creates situations where people can't afford to go out and get a job, because their benefits are waaaay more than they could ever earn. In my view there should never be an incentive that persuades you to avoid trying to support yourself.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Belle Leisha » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:29 pm

I don't specifically disagree with any of your views Kes, in fact it's worth saying my own perspective has been similar, up to the forces bit. My parents were staunch Labour supporters, of the hard left variety. I grew up associating Labour with people like Tony Blair though, and could see no reason to support that. Equally the Conservative manifesto alone is a disgusting thing and in the one and only time I've been old enough to vote in a general election, I voted Liberal Democrat, in dislike for both leading parties. And what a fool I was. :roll:

After that I thought I better know some stuff, as not being interested in politics doesn't stop it biting you in the butt. :P I came to the conclusion that Labour isn't even a preferable option anymore, it's just the more duplicitous. But it was, a genuine workers party. Eventually Labour expelled all of their militant left wing members, then came New Labour, and the two are entirely different parties. I did think Labour could be reclaimed, but the last two years have changed my mind. National politics is a waste of time for normal people, for reasons like what you're saying about the forces, and because voting for an MP who'll do whatever the party line wants, regardless of public opinion, every four years isn't democracy. Local politics can help normal people though, local councils can be turned, but if their full of Labour/Tories, the local picture will be the same as the national. If there's a councillor, form any party, Tory/Labour included, who will vote against cuts, then vote them in, no party bias whatsoever. Where I live, only the Socialist Party do that, across the country that's anyone standing under the banner of Trade Union and Socialist Coalition.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Kes » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:29 pm

Like I've said MANY times before, the majority of people don't vote for the party they like, they vote for the one they think will hurt them the least.

Over the years, I guess my priorities have shifted. Nowadays, I can look at governmental spending, and see that X billions being spent on nuclear submarines, is a bottomless pit swallowing money for no apparent benefit. On the other hand, I live with the conversations I had with my parents and grandparents about the climate and conditions that allowed Nazism to take over most of Europe. All you need is a country in deep financial shit, and you get extreme solutions to extreme problems. However stable you think it is now, and has been in your lifetime, transitions like Germany invading Europe in the late thirties/early forties can happen in months, if not weeks.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher

Postby Elessar » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:29 am

Interesting piece that I was linked to earlier today, presumably because The Iron Lady was on TV recently:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... s-all.html
 
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