Should All Schools Be Secular?

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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Kes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:36 am

Inny, when we are five, we don't get a lot of choice in what happens to us.

That's the point here.

As a society, we can either discard or compound the wrongs and rights we pass on to our children.

The question that was basically asked was "Should our kids have the right to choose what to believe for themselves, or should religion be forced into their heads before they are even able to choose what they have for dinner?"

We are ALL going to feel differently about this depending on our own experiences.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:06 am

Innuendoes wrote:I don't know how anyone from the UK can stop USA Private Catholic schools from teaching religion. Get over yourselves.

That is what I attended from age 5 through 12. My mother forced the school principal to let me in sooner. I was the youngest in my class and did have a hard time with interacting with certain kids but that's neither here nor there. After that, I went to the public high school until age 17, graduated and went on to college (uni to those of you who don't use that term).

The only things we did as far as religious studies in grade school was to read stories out of a Catechism book. That was basically the bible, written in a format that children could understand and no Latin, although we sung a lot of songs in Latin in choir. And that was somewhere around 1 hour per day. Everything we studied was about 1 hour per day.

In my opinion, we were taught the other subjects very well. There was a big focus on academics - a lot more than the public school in my town. Statistics show that SAT scores for Catholic students are higher than their counterparts in the public school system and this is now and was back when I was a young child.

I am very happy that my parents put me in that school and I think I did very well. I started music in 2nd grade and went on to teach it, privately for flute, after high school and college. Our school taught us the real basics that schools don't seem to teach anymore. Reading, writing and arithmetic and no calculators, slide rules or any other devices to assist. We had to do it all on paper and use our brains. We learned geography and a touch of science although my school wasn't equipped for much. I had almost all science classes in high school, not as a little child in grade school. However, we did learn Latin to a degree because of singing it. The English translation of what we were singing was right under the Latin. That, alone, helped me make my choice to take 2 years of Latin in high school which was considered more or less an extracurricular class. I wish I had taken Spanish instead but Latin helped me a lot with some of my jobs in the veterinary field.

As far as public schools in my district, I don't think they ever taught religion - at least not in Southern Illinois, where I grew up.

I find it exciting that the Newman Center chapel, here in town is full of students every time I go to church, there. The choir or one man choir most of the time, is most excellent with a singer and musician who is absolutely excellent. Damn that guy's got a voice and plays guitar very well. It's so much fun to sing along with him and everyone actually sings! I LOVE it!

Bash all you want. I am happy with the decision my parents made for me and I will continue going to church, no matter what kind of BS this little message board throws in my face. :)


Who has said anything about stopping catholic schools in the US? If they want to run their education system in that way, let them be ignorant; I couldn't give a fuck.

There is no place for myths in schools. Although I take Weeman's point about religion being taught in the context of learning about other cultures, etc. - I don't see this as an entirely bad thing. My problem really is the schools (which I believe are more prevalent in the US) that teach kids that god made the earth and evolution does not exist: they are lying to vulnerable children, and as those that have been placed in a position to educate they should be fucking well ashamed of themselves.

I remember being given detention at school here in the UK because my friend and I refused to say prayers to a god we did not believe in (therefore making us hypocrites) at morning assembly. That was wrong. But, fortunately, religion no longer has the influence it once had (well in the more enlightened parts of the world anyway); more and more people are evolving without the need for all that bullshit.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Innuendoes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:13 am

musicalprostitute wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:I don't know how anyone from the UK can stop USA Private Catholic schools from teaching religion. Get over yourselves.

That is what I attended from age 5 through 12. My mother forced the school principal to let me in sooner. I was the youngest in my class and did have a hard time with interacting with certain kids but that's neither here nor there. After that, I went to the public high school until age 17, graduated and went on to college (uni to those of you who don't use that term).

The only things we did as far as religious studies in grade school was to read stories out of a Catechism book. That was basically the bible, written in a format that children could understand and no Latin, although we sung a lot of songs in Latin in choir. And that was somewhere around 1 hour per day. Everything we studied was about 1 hour per day.

In my opinion, we were taught the other subjects very well. There was a big focus on academics - a lot more than the public school in my town. Statistics show that SAT scores for Catholic students are higher than their counterparts in the public school system and this is now and was back when I was a young child.

I am very happy that my parents put me in that school and I think I did very well. I started music in 2nd grade and went on to teach it, privately for flute, after high school and college. Our school taught us the real basics that schools don't seem to teach anymore. Reading, writing and arithmetic and no calculators, slide rules or any other devices to assist. We had to do it all on paper and use our brains. We learned geography and a touch of science although my school wasn't equipped for much. I had almost all science classes in high school, not as a little child in grade school. However, we did learn Latin to a degree because of singing it. The English translation of what we were singing was right under the Latin. That, alone, helped me make my choice to take 2 years of Latin in high school which was considered more or less an extracurricular class. I wish I had taken Spanish instead but Latin helped me a lot with some of my jobs in the veterinary field.

As far as public schools in my district, I don't think they ever taught religion - at least not in Southern Illinois, where I grew up.

I find it exciting that the Newman Center chapel, here in town is full of students every time I go to church, there. The choir or one man choir most of the time, is most excellent with a singer and musician who is absolutely excellent. Damn that guy's got a voice and plays guitar very well. It's so much fun to sing along with him and everyone actually sings! I LOVE it!

Bash all you want. I am happy with the decision my parents made for me and I will continue going to church, no matter what kind of BS this little message board throws in my face. :)


Who has said anything about stopping catholic schools in the US? If they want to run their education system in that way, let them be ignorant; I couldn't give a fuck.

There is no place for myths in schools. Although I take Weeman's point about religion being taught in the context of learning about other cultures, etc. - I don't see this as an entirely bad thing. My problem really is the schools (which I believe are more prevalent in the US) that teach kids that god made the earth and evolution does not exist: they are lying to vulnerable children, and as those that have been placed in a position to educate they should be fucking well ashamed of themselves.

I remember being given detention at school here in the UK because my friend and I refused to say prayers to a god we did not believe in (therefore making us hypocrites) at morning assembly. That was wrong. But, fortunately, religion no longer has the influence it once had (well in the more enlightened parts of the world anyway); more and more people are evolving without the need for all that bullshit.


The Newman Center (that's created for college students and high school graduates for many different reasons, i.e. get-togethers, movies, banquets, charity work and church :shock:) is full of university students, every Saturday evening and off and on, on Sundays, depending on what mass they want to attend, and this isn't even a Catholic university! It's state run but all cities have a Newman Center. They go because they want to, not because someone has twisted their arm or told them they're going to hell if they don't go. They WANT to go, unlike people in your country and despite the fact people in the UK think religion is dead and no one goes anymore.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:56 am

Innuendoes wrote:
The Newman Center (that's created for college students and high school graduates for many different reasons, i.e. get-togethers, movies, banquets, charity work and church :shock:) is full of university students, every Saturday evening and off and on, on Sundays, depending on what mass they want to attend, and this isn't even a Catholic university! It's state run but all cities have a Newman Center. They go because they want to, not because someone has twisted their arm or told them they're going to hell if they don't go. They WANT to go, unlike people in your country and despite the fact people in the UK think religion is dead and no one goes anymore.


I never said that they were forced to go. I was clearly talking about schools that teach bullshit god over evolution. Do you get that?

And, you are right, in my country people are not so brain-washed with religion. I guess we have just made up our own minds - terrible godless country that we are. God (I hate using a capital letter with that bullshit word, but I had to there!) strike us all down!
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Kes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:14 pm

I think to understand why religion became so popular, you have to understand that in it's formation was an almost complete scientific void as regards answers to why we are here and how we should lead our lives.

No-one knew about how the universe was created. No-one knew about any rational reason towards the meaning of life. They needed guidance as regards relationships, the perils of excessive living and the value of human life, and depending where you were geographically in the world, a system was developed to ease people's minds and give them an almanac on how to live their lives.

Unfortunately, these systems then became a valid reason to divide people into different facets, and social groups, and give them an excuse to persecute anyone different to themselves.

My biggest gripe about religion and how it is taught ANYWHERE in this world, is how they all depict someone outside of that faith as being a lesser person, and therefore having a life that isn't worth as much as a devout follower. It almost makes it somehow right to go and kill them, as a favour to God. That's certainly how Islamic fundamentalists see it, and being honest, that's how George W. Bush painted it when he started proceedings to go and slaughter half a million Arabs.

Now, if someone thinks the good it does, outweighs the evil, then that's their argument, but I think they will have to be pretty clear on what's fact and what isn't to convince me.

2000+ years ago, what is now Islam, and what is now Christianity were pretty much the same set of stories. Abraham and Ibraheim are the same bloke. The religions became separated with the Immaculate conception. An almost unbelievable theory back then, but with artificial insemination, something that has been scientifically totally possible for the last fifty years.

Thing is, without any religious education, would I know this, or be bothered?

So, it's a double edged sword. I see RK as necessary, but it shouldn't be indoctrination, it should be "mildy" put across in an unbiased way, and it should be at an age where the child can rationalise it, and decide for themselves.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby icy » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:24 pm

Kes wrote:Inny, when we are five, we don't get a lot of choice in what happens to us.

That's the point here.

As a society, we can either discard or compound the wrongs and rights we pass on to our children.

The question that was basically asked was "Should our kids have the right to choose what to believe for themselves, or should religion be forced into their heads before they are even able to choose what they have for dinner?"

We are ALL going to feel differently about this depending on our own experiences.


Exactly, and maybe if my own were different, I would feel otherwise.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:25 pm

Kes wrote:I think to understand why religion became so popular, you have to understand that in it's formation was an almost complete scientific void as regards answers to why we are here and how we should lead our lives.

No-one knew about how the universe was created. No-one knew about any rational reason towards the meaning of life. They needed guidance as regards relationships, the perils of excessive living and the value of human life, and depending where you were geographically in the world, a system was developed to ease people's minds and give them an almanac on how to live their lives.

Unfortunately, these systems then became a valid reason to divide people into different facets, and social groups, and give them an excuse to persecute anyone different to themselves.

My biggest gripe about religion and how it is taught ANYWHERE in this world, is how they all depict someone outside of that faith as being a lesser person, and therefore having a life that isn't worth as much as a devout follower. It almost makes it somehow right to go and kill them, as a favour to God. That's certainly how Islamic fundamentalists see it, and being honest, that's how George W. Bush painted it when he started proceedings to go and slaughter half a million Arabs.

Now, if someone thinks the good it does, outweighs the evil, then that's their argument, but I think they will have to be pretty clear on what's fact and what isn't to convince me.

2000+ years ago, what is now Islam, and what is now Christianity were pretty much the same set of stories. Abraham and Ibraheim are the same bloke. The religions became separated with the Immaculate conception. An almost unbelievable theory back then, but with artificial insemination, something that has been scientifically totally possible for the last fifty years.


Eloquent post.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Kes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:37 pm

Consequently, I believe "a degree" of Religious Education should probably be taught to teenagers, as a mandatory subject, but it should encompass all major religions equally in an unbiased and unpreaching way. Laid out as a "here's the options", and not forgetting that agnostics and atheists also have an equal say.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:53 pm

Kes wrote:Consequently, I believe "a degree" of Religious Education should probably be taught to teenagers, as a mandatory subject, but it should encompass all major religions equally in an unbiased and unpreaching way. Laid out as a "here's the options", and not forgetting that agnostics and atheists also have an equal say.


I don't completely agree. Although I do concur that if this was an option, agnostics and atheists got an equal say too (which reminds me of one of my favourite t-shirts on this subject - 'Thank God For Atheists'; saying that, I quite like the one that reads on the front 'Jesus Loves You' - and on the back 'But Everybody Else Thinks You're A Cunt').
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Kes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:56 pm

By impartial and unbiased, I mean you should also incorporate the dirty side, like these crazy sects you get in America, and these Islamic fundamentalists who strap C4 waistcoats on for some misguided one-way trip to do all the things their religion discourages with 24 virgins.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:23 pm

Kes wrote:By impartial and unbiased, I mean you should also incorporate the dirty side, like these crazy sects you get in America, and these Islamic fundamentalists who strap C4 waistcoats on for some misguided one-way trip to do all the things their religion discourages with 24 virgins.


Definitely. I feel that such religious fanaticism should be discussed in a very open way in schools - this is one area that should be explained comprehensively because it is educational (especially in today's climate).
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:41 pm

The British people may tend to be less religious than the American people, but the school system in America is far more secular. In fact, the USA is a secular nation (see First Amendment), whereas the UK is a Christian nation. In the USA, students can't be punished for refusing to pray. In the UK, that kind of crap is commonplace. My school had a cathedral service after every term, and it was treated as a regular school day in terms of attendance. Members of faiths other than Christianity were excused, but atheists still had to go. This meant that my Sri Lankan atheist friend had to either pretend to be Hindu, or just go along with it. He tended to pick the latter, as he'd rather stay quiet than actively lie.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:11 pm

Elessar wrote: Members of faiths other than Christianity were excused, but atheists still had to go. This meant that my Sri Lankan atheist friend had to either pretend to be Hindu, or just go along with it. He tended to pick the latter, as he'd rather stay quiet than actively lie.


See, I find that just so wrong and so unfair; your friend should not have been put in that situation.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby WeeMann » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:33 pm

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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:58 pm

WeeMann wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/19/british-government-bans-creationism-schools_n_5511010.html?fb_action_ids=10152522018804804&fb_action_types=og.likes


Cheers for the link; how apt! :)
 
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