Should All Schools Be Secular?

This is the place for topical debate and discussion about anything in the world (non-Queen related).

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:29 pm

Elessar wrote:
musicalprostitute wrote:
Well, I speak as I am spoken to. 'Fuck this thread' - where did that come from? Why not just debate?

I will probably go further than the 'full John Lennon' (I love him!).


The reference was to no religion/no countries.


Well I am not psychic, so how would I know? Mr Lennon made various remarks about religion over the years, not just the lyrics you quote from his most famous song.

But the man was so right.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4306
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby 1By1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:37 pm

I don't even mind shouting to the rooftop "Science and Math matter!". Add logic too! And don't get me started on music theory, in general, the arts, which sometimes lose out in funding cuts. The teaching of creationism is nuts.
By hook or crook, education must somehow lead humin beans away from the mythical stories of religion which harm the planet so much (Jesus will return to cleanse the earth so go ahead and fuck it up!). Texas and Oklahoma are finally waking up to man made climate disasters due to experiencing earthquakes caused by drilling.
It is important to research claims made by religious people. For instance GMO's. My former fundamental Xtian boss described them as "the glitter" (God told us to stay away from the glitter). Not ok. He was underinformed and poorly educated about biotechnology which does have its negative aspects. The internet should be used as a tool to get the most informed and educated information about science. Dot edus are a good source to look as well as scientific peer reviewed journals. Schools should all be equipped with computers. Students should be taught good research skills on the internet as early as the 5th grade. ALL secondary schools should be eqipped with laboratories and research equipment.
Science education is forever renewing as we invent new ways to test theories. But we cannot go forward if we are held back by bullshit religious myths. :geek:
 
1By1
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby WeeMann » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:09 pm

I just wonder where this attitude that children are being force-fed religion in school comes from. It's my experience as a parent, and the husband of a teacher, that this isn't the case, merely that children are taught about religion (in all its guises - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.).

If you're speaking of specifically religious schools, that's a different matter and parents have the right to choose a different school for their children if they so wish. You can't move in next door to a pub then moan that there are drunk people walking past your house at all hours.
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a post, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
 
WeeMann
Moderator
 
User avatar

 

Not even on the B list...

      
 
Posts: 6489
Images: 103
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:37 pm
Location: Shropshire
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:14 pm

WeeMann wrote:I just wonder where this attitude that children are being force-fed religion in school comes from. It's my experience as a parent, and the husband of a teacher, that this isn't the case, merely that children are taught about religion (in all its guises - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.).

If you're speaking of specifically religious schools, that's a different matter and parents have the right to choose a different school for their children if they so wish. You can't move in next door to a pub then moan that there are drunk people walking past your house at all hours.


But they should not be taught about religion at all; surely it is just common sense to state that schools should educate children about facts, not myths or fiction. Teach children about things that are true.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4306
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby WeeMann » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:22 pm

Religion is a fact, though. Whether or not you believe in a deity, religion has been a fact of life for millennia.

In my childrens' school it's taught as Morals, Beliefs and Values. There's a lot to be gained in learning why people believe the things they do.

Mainly religion is about treating others as you wish to be treated yourself, helping others, etc. Strip out the deity issue and tell me that's a bad thing.
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a post, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
 
WeeMann
Moderator
 
User avatar

 

Not even on the B list...

      
 
Posts: 6489
Images: 103
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:37 pm
Location: Shropshire
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:33 pm

WeeMann wrote:Religion is a fact, though. Whether or not you believe in a deity, religion has been a fact of life for millennia.

In my childrens' school it's taught as Morals, Beliefs and Values. There's a lot to be gained in learning why people believe the things they do.

Mainly religion is about treating others as you wish to be treated yourself, helping others, etc. Strip out the deity issue and tell me that's a bad thing.


It is not a fact. A fact of life is completely different.

Of course religion is a bad thing (how many deaths so far?). It is a bad thing because it teaches children to believe in something that is about as real as Santa Clause - how is that good for the education of young minds?

And, lastly, one does not need religion to teach children about 'treating others as you wish to be treated yourself, helping others, etc.' One only has to look to the good deeds done by fellow human beings across the world to teach those things. We do not need religion to instil in children morals or rights and wrongs, charitable works, etc.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4306
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby WeeMann » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:42 pm

I think you're mistaking religion for organised religion.

You can be religious, spiritual, etc and not believe in a deity.

You can believe in a deity and be a complete arse.

The subject of religion (i.e. learning how different belief systems differ from one another) can be an interesting and educational topic. You don't have to believe in a deity for this to be true. I believe there's great value in understanding the workings of other cultures and belief systems.

To bring it down further, my children aren't taught Jesus' teachings in school - that's what happens in church - but they are taught how different religions all come from common beliefs and values. Every major religion teaches the Great Flood story. Ever wondered why and how that can be?
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a post, complain to me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
 
WeeMann
Moderator
 
User avatar

 

Not even on the B list...

      
 
Posts: 6489
Images: 103
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:37 pm
Location: Shropshire
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:54 pm

At my secondary school, we were taught about all the major religions. At primary school, it was proper Bible-bashing. Only token references to other religions. Basically indoctrination. I don't hold anything against my parents for sending me there, especially as they remedied it with secondary school, but they were basically deciding what I was taught to believe, and I actually don't think they should have had that right.

Incidentally, UK primary schools are obliged by law to teach religion, and 51% or more must be Christian.
 
Elessar
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:12 pm

WeeMann wrote:I think you're mistaking religion for organised religion.

You can be religious, spiritual, etc and not believe in a deity.

You can believe in a deity and be a complete arse.

The subject of religion (i.e. learning how different belief systems differ from one another) can be an interesting and educational topic. You don't have to believe in a deity for this to be true. I believe there's great value in understanding the workings of other cultures and belief systems.

To bring it down further, my children aren't taught Jesus' teachings in school - that's what happens in church - but they are taught how different religions all come from common beliefs and values. Every major religion teaches the Great Flood story. Ever wondered why and how that can be?


I am aware that one can be religious and not believe in a deity; are you saying that they do not teach children about the various deities in schools?

I believe there is great value in learning about other cultures too, but we do not need religion in order to do that.

And, yes, I am also aware of some of the common themes shared through various religions.

I think as long as children are told from the start that these are all fairy tales, I would probably feel better about it.

My main gripe, I suppose, is with the schools in certain parts of America that teach religion as opposed to evolution. I don't think that problem is as prevalent in this country.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4306
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby musicalprostitute » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:14 pm

Elessar wrote:At my secondary school, we were taught about all the major religions. At primary school, it was proper Bible-bashing. Only token references to other religions. Basically indoctrination. I don't hold anything against my parents for sending me there, especially as they remedied it with secondary school, but they were basically deciding what I was taught to believe, and I actually don't think they should have had that right.

Incidentally, UK primary schools are obliged by law to teach religion, and 51% or more must be Christian.


I did not know that UK primary schools are obliged by law to teach religion; thanks for the information.
 
musicalprostitute
Don't Stop Me Now
 
User avatar

 

Defend yourself, I bring catastrophe

      
 
Posts: 4306
Images: 0
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:52 am
Location: Essex and Cardiff.
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 462 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Innuendoes » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:38 pm

I don't know how anyone from the UK can stop USA Private Catholic schools from teaching religion. Get over yourselves.

That is what I attended from age 5 through 12. My mother forced the school principal to let me in sooner. I was the youngest in my class and did have a hard time with interacting with certain kids but that's neither here nor there. After that, I went to the public high school until age 17, graduated and went on to college (uni to those of you who don't use that term).

The only things we did as far as religious studies in grade school was to read stories out of a Catechism book. That was basically the bible, written in a format that children could understand and no Latin, although we sung a lot of songs in Latin in choir. And that was somewhere around 1 hour per day. Everything we studied was about 1 hour per day.

In my opinion, we were taught the other subjects very well. There was a big focus on academics - a lot more than the public school in my town. Statistics show that SAT scores for Catholic students are higher than their counterparts in the public school system and this is now and was back when I was a young child.

I am very happy that my parents put me in that school and I think I did very well. I started music in 2nd grade and went on to teach it, privately for flute, after high school and college. Our school taught us the real basics that schools don't seem to teach anymore. Reading, writing and arithmetic and no calculators, slide rules or any other devices to assist. We had to do it all on paper and use our brains. We learned geography and a touch of science although my school wasn't equipped for much. I had almost all science classes in high school, not as a little child in grade school. However, we did learn Latin to a degree because of singing it. The English translation of what we were singing was right under the Latin. That, alone, helped me make my choice to take 2 years of Latin in high school which was considered more or less an extracurricular class. I wish I had taken Spanish instead but Latin helped me a lot with some of my jobs in the veterinary field.

As far as public schools in my district, I don't think they ever taught religion - at least not in Southern Illinois, where I grew up.

I find it exciting that the Newman Center chapel, here in town is full of students every time I go to church, there. The choir or one man choir most of the time, is most excellent with a singer and musician who is absolutely excellent. Damn that guy's got a voice and plays guitar very well. It's so much fun to sing along with him and everyone actually sings! I LOVE it!

Bash all you want. I am happy with the decision my parents made for me and I will continue going to church, no matter what kind of BS this little message board throws in my face. :)
 
Innuendoes
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby icy » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:20 am

Innuendoes wrote:I don't know how anyone from the UK can stop USA Private Catholic schools from teaching religion. Get over yourselves.

That is what I attended from age 5 through 12. My mother forced the school principal to let me in sooner. I was the youngest in my class and did have a hard time with interacting with certain kids but that's neither here nor there. After that, I went to the public high school until age 17, graduated and went on to college (uni to those of you who don't use that term).

The only things we did as far as religious studies in grade school was to read stories out of a Catechism book. That was basically the bible, written in a format that children could understand and no Latin, although we sung a lot of songs in Latin in choir. And that was somewhere around 1 hour per day. Everything we studied was about 1 hour per day.

In my opinion, we were taught the other subjects very well. There was a big focus on academics - a lot more than the public school in my town. Statistics show that SAT scores for Catholic students are higher than their counterparts in the public school system and this is now and was back when I was a young child.

I am very happy that my parents put me in that school and I think I did very well. I started music in 2nd grade and went on to teach it, privately for flute, after high school and college. Our school taught us the real basics that schools don't seem to teach anymore. Reading, writing and arithmetic and no calculators, slide rules or any other devices to assist. We had to do it all on paper and use our brains. We learned geography and a touch of science although my school wasn't equipped for much. I had almost all science classes in high school, not as a little child in grade school. However, we did learn Latin to a degree because of singing it. The English translation of what we were singing was right under the Latin. That, alone, helped me make my choice to take 2 years of Latin in high school which was considered more or less an extracurricular class. I wish I had taken Spanish instead but Latin helped me a lot with some of my jobs in the veterinary field.

As far as public schools in my district, I don't think they ever taught religion - at least not in Southern Illinois, where I grew up.

I find it exciting that the Newman Center chapel, here in town is full of students every time I go to church, there. The choir or one man choir most of the time, is most excellent with a singer and musician who is absolutely excellent. Damn that guy's got a voice and plays guitar very well. It's so much fun to sing along with him and everyone actually sings! I LOVE it!

Bash all you want. I am happy with the decision my parents made for me and I will continue going to church, no matter what kind of BS this little message board throws in my face. :)

Oh Inny. I'm so sorry if you think I'm bashing, or if you think anyone else is. :-(
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
Or how I'll be saved
I'm no coward
But I'm not that brave
Rags are blowing
Rain's getting near
I'm done with running
And it's getting dark in here~

~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
icy
We Are The Champions
 
User avatar

 

And the wounded skies above say it's much too late

      
 
Posts: 16839
Images: 0
Joined: Sun May 01, 2011 4:44 am
Location: . Don't forget to remember...
Gender: Female
Has thanked: 276 times
Been thanked: 599 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Innuendoes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:49 am

icy wrote:Oh Inny. I'm so sorry if you think I'm bashing, or if you think anyone else is. :-(


fairydandy wrote:Anyone who believes in it in this day and age really needs sectioning for being insane.


Right - this is not bashing, is it? The fuck it's not!
 
Innuendoes
 
User avatar

 
 

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Kes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:21 am

I think it's a personal opinion.

If I believe in little grey or green men visiting the planet, and them taking humans away for experimentation, then that's all fine and dandy. I don't, but the principle is there. If someone decides that there isn't a lot of fact in my opinion, they have every right to put forward a counterpoint.

I then make the choice whether I carry on believing in my theory or not. I can't really expect everyone to keep their traps shut just because anything contrary might upset me.

The fact is that about half the people on this planet believe in ancient stories that have been handed down through generations, and a lot of these stories have very little substantiated scientific fact in them. It's very hard for anyone with even an iota of logical reasoning in them to sit there and say "Oh, OK, they MAY be right!"

Because the burden of proof is more towards proving something exists than it not existing, that's why anyone who has "faith" seems to get frustrated and "throw their comforter out of the stroller" when challenged about it. You know it's only the belief you and others have that holds the whole thing together. Fairly strong glue two hundred years ago, but with the advent of technology, discoveries and inventions, it's getting weaker by the second.

It's no accident that it's called "The Catholic Doctrine", and the expansion of the second word is "indoctrination". The way some religions are taught is like indelibly etching the information on the inside of someone's skull. Any chance they have of ever forming their own opinion on the matter is off to a bit of a bad start as they have to deal with over-writing a very large amount of pre-programming that's placed there before they have any concept of decision making for themselves.
What is left of your dream?
Just the words on your stone.
A man who learnt how to teach,
But forgot how to learn.
 
Kes
Moderator
 
User avatar

 
 
Posts: 15044
Images: 747
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am
Location: London, England
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 390 times

Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Innuendoes » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:29 am

Kes wrote:I think it's a personal opinion.

If I believe in little grey or green men visiting the planet, and them taking humans away for experimentation, then that's all fine and dandy. I don't, but the principle is there. If someone decides that there isn't a lot of fact in my opinion, they have every right to put forward a counterpoint.

I then make the choice whether I carry on believing in my theory or not. I can't really expect everyone to keep their traps shut just because anything contrary might upset me.

The fact is that about half the people on this planet believe in ancient stories that have been handed down through generations, and a lot of these stories have very little substantiated scientific fact in them. It's very hard for anyone with even an iota of logical reasoning in them to sit there and say "Oh, OK, they MAY be right!"

Because the burden of proof is more towards proving something exists than it not existing, that's why anyone who has "faith" seems to get frustrated and "throw their comforter out of the stroller" when challenged about it. You know it's only the belief you and others have that holds the whole thing together. Fairly strong glue two hundred years ago, but with the agent of technology, discoveries and inventions, it's getting weaker by the second.


I can't speak for your schools because they seem totally and completely different from ours. However, don't think for 1 minute when a student is in a Catholic school in the USA, they are on their knees praying all day. Heh. They aren't on their knees at all, unless they are in church and during the time (15 minutes, tops) that people are supposed to kneel. The rest of the time they are studying subjects just like any other school. However, the education they used to get in that type of school was far better than the public school education and that is backed by facts. Test scores. Test score facts are still higher than public schools, nowadays. That is for every subject taught in any school, be it a religious school or one that teaches no religious subjects at all.
 
Innuendoes
 
User avatar

 
 

PreviousNext

Return to Views Of The World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests