Should All Schools Be Secular?

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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular

Postby YAFF » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:36 pm

musicalprostitute wrote: And I am a fan of Richard Dawkings! :lol:


It's Dawkins and it's very telling you name drop him. The man is one of the weakest, most debunked atheists in popular culture.

I'd like to know if you anti-religion folks are concerned about biased, nationalistic history and unproven scientific theory being taught in school (since you're so concerned with "facts")?
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:22 am

The short answer is yes. The long one is that one should always beware Greeks bearing gifts.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Kes » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:14 am

I'll try and bear that in mind, hopefully I'm holidaying in Cyprus again this year.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular

Postby Kes » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:31 am

YAFF wrote:
I'd like to know if you anti-religion folks are concerned about biased, nationalistic history and unproven scientific theory being taught in school (since you're so concerned with "facts")?


Yes, of course.

I firmly believe all British kids should know we "invented" association football, slavery, scalping and concentration camps. It should also be noted that other countries have taken over all of those things and carried them out far more efficiently taking them to completely new levels.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular

Postby musicalprostitute » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:36 pm

YAFF wrote:
musicalprostitute wrote: And I am a fan of Richard Dawkings! :lol:


It's Dawkins and it's very telling you name drop him. The man is one of the weakest, most debunked atheists in popular culture.

I'd like to know if you anti-religion folks are concerned about biased, nationalistic history and unproven scientific theory being taught in school (since you're so concerned with "facts")?


Yaff, you have jumped on many of my posts to purely attempt to rile me. No more, boy.

With regards to Richard Dawkins, please post the relevant evidence with regards to him being 'one of the weakest, most debunked atheists in popular culture'. For me, I do not agree with every single thing he has ever stated; but as an agnostic, I find a lot of his work interesting and I relate to it.

With regards to facts taught in schools: I am concerned about children being fed stuff that has no empirical evidence to back it up.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular

Postby YAFF » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:47 pm

musicalprostitute wrote:Yaff, you have jumped on many of my posts to purely attempt to rile me. No more, boy.


Get over yourself. I respond to some of the stupid stuff that appears here regardless of the name behind it.

musicalprostitute wrote:With regards to Richard Dawkins, please post the relevant evidence with regards to him being 'one of the weakest, most debunked atheists in popular culture'. For me, I do not agree with every single thing he has ever stated; but as an agnostic, I find a lot of his work interesting and I relate to it.


It would take too much time and effort to do that. One major gaffe was his "methinksitslikeaweasel" example to describe natural selection. It fails for a very obvious reason.Type in "Dawkins debunked" on Google and have at it.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:53 pm

What's wrong with the weasel thing? It makes complete sense to me.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular

Postby musicalprostitute » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:02 pm

YAFF wrote:
musicalprostitute wrote:Yaff, you have jumped on many of my posts to purely attempt to rile me. No more, boy.


Get over yourself. I respond to some of the stupid stuff that appears here regardless of the name behind it.

musicalprostitute wrote:With regards to Richard Dawkins, please post the relevant evidence with regards to him being 'one of the weakest, most debunked atheists in popular culture'. For me, I do not agree with every single thing he has ever stated; but as an agnostic, I find a lot of his work interesting and I relate to it.


It would take too much time and effort to do that. One major gaffe was his "methinksitslikeaweasel" example to describe natural selection. It fails for a very obvious reason.Type in "Dawkins debunked" on Google and have at it.


Yaff, you are just a negative person, full stop. I am not going to argue about this shit with you anymore.

So, your 'evidence' is based on the example you gave above? Seriously? That's it? Oh, well. we will have to agree to disagree, old sport.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby YAFF » Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Elessar wrote:What's wrong with the weasel thing? It makes complete sense to me.


Because that's not how evolution supposedly works. Dawkins himself was picking patterns and letters he wanted to generate an outcome. With weasel he had a target. A true naturalistic view of evolution is that it's completely random. He interfered with his algorithms like a god interfering with evolution
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:05 pm

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:What's wrong with the weasel thing? It makes complete sense to me.


Because that's not how evolution supposedly works. Dawkins himself was picking patterns and letters he wanted to generate an outcome. With weasel he had a target. A true naturalistic view of evolution is that it's completely random. He interfered with his algorithms like a god interfering with evolution


He acknowledged that limitation himself. The difference between his example and true evolution is that each intermediate step must be fit enough to survive on its own merits, whereas in his example, intermediate strings of letters are meaningless.

However, the point he was making is that if there is some selection of step-wise changes, it is far easier to generate complexity than it is to generate an entire complex entity de novo. It's a rebuttal to the criticism that a watch couldn't spontaneously assemble itself in a sandstorm (or something to that effect), and that by the same logic, a human organism can't spontaneously evolve from small organic compounds.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:14 pm

Furthermore if you don't accept evolution as a mechanism for the production of life forms, and prefer an intelligent designer, you run into difficulties. If the complexity of life can only be explained by an intelligent designer, then the existence of an intelligent designer, by definition as complex as its creations, must also be explained by an intelligent designer. If you propose an alternative explanation, then an alternative explanation for living organisms must be permissible. The line of arguing therefore becomes circular.
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby YAFF » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:05 am

Elessar wrote:Furthermore if you don't accept evolution as a mechanism for the production of life forms, and prefer an intelligent designer, you run into difficulties. If the complexity of life can only be explained by an intelligent designer, then the existence of an intelligent designer, by definition as complex as its creations, must also be explained by an intelligent designer. If you propose an alternative explanation, then an alternative explanation for living organisms must be permissible. The line of arguing therefore becomes circular.


Like Dawkins you mistakenly postulate that the Intelligent Designer must be incredibly complex- more complex than the design.That is not how "God" is defined. Such a being is actually the simplist of beings. As a mind without a body, God is amazingly simple. Being immaterial, He has no physical parts. Therefore to postulate a pure Mind as the explanation of fine-tuning is the height of simplicity. Thus comparing pure mind to complex organisms is folly.
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby nicksmithworld » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:15 am

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/18/why_is_god_telling_me_to_stop_asking_questions_meet_the_woman_behind_neil_degrasse_tysons_cosmos/

she has also described religious faith as “antithetical to the values of science” and religion in general as “a statement of contempt for nature and reality.”
‘...and I find myself thinkin', well, what would you do?’
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby Elessar » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:55 am

YAFF wrote:
Elessar wrote:Furthermore if you don't accept evolution as a mechanism for the production of life forms, and prefer an intelligent designer, you run into difficulties. If the complexity of life can only be explained by an intelligent designer, then the existence of an intelligent designer, by definition as complex as its creations, must also be explained by an intelligent designer. If you propose an alternative explanation, then an alternative explanation for living organisms must be permissible. The line of arguing therefore becomes circular.


Like Dawkins you mistakenly postulate that the Intelligent Designer must be incredibly complex- more complex than the design.That is not how "God" is defined. Such a being is actually the simplist of beings. As a mind without a body, God is amazingly simple. Being immaterial, He has no physical parts. Therefore to postulate a pure Mind as the explanation of fine-tuning is the height of simplicity. Thus comparing pure mind to complex organisms is folly.


How could a designer design something without being able to create a depiction of it within his mind?
 
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Re: Should All Schools Be Secular?

Postby nicksmithworld » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:03 am

Elessar wrote:
How could a designer design something without being able to create a depiction of it within his mind?


A spider builds a web without plans, birds build complex nests without ever being taught...Beavers build dams
‘...and I find myself thinkin', well, what would you do?’
 
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