The Great War 1914-1918.

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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Elessar » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:37 am

Was there an edit war or something? I was finding the discussion quite interesting. The British (and Americans) seem to have the attitude that we won the war, the Germans lost, and we had to save the French, which while true kind of puts a spin on commemoration that I don't think is very helpful. Commemoration should be about remembering the dead, not celebrating a victory, bemoaning a defeat, or expecting renewed gratitude from countries we helped. I also feel uncomfortable with the idea that my personal relationship with the war is somehow different to that of a German counterpart, and I would hope that it isn't.
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Tarkus » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:25 am

magic action wrote:people always say "we" didnt learn from the war, but "we" never wanted the first two world wars in the first place. it's rather "we" were called to duty by the establishment, and the powerfull elite who wanted to extent their economic power. the elite in france, britain, germany,... ALL wanted to maintain their wealth and extent it even more.

italy stayed out of the war the longest due to a strong socialist opposition, but as time went on they had to bent for the constant calls from the economical elite, that war means business, and business means money.

to this end, they used millions and millions of innocent people who were brainwashed by nationalist propaganda to the point they wanted the war too. and if propaganda didnt help to convince working class men to fight, they were forced to or punished as deserters.

"we" didnt have to learn anything. its the fucking economic elite that should, and so far they havent learned a damn, they have only further damaged our world with wars and environmental disasters


I know what you mean- it seems the only people who profit from wars nowadays are the arms manufacturers, petroleum companies and those that support them. It's an interesting fact that at the end of WW1, once the Ottoman empire was partitioned, the Royal Navy embarked upon a massive scheme to modernise the fleet from coal burning ships to oil burning ships, at a cost of over a million pounds, which was serious cash at that time. The fleet could only do that because of the partition, which enabled the allied powers to play the newly created buffer states off against each other for mutual advantage. We've been doing that ever since, supporting Iran against Iraq, Iraq against Iran, and so on and on. I strongly suspect that even the situation in Ukraine is being manipulated by us just as much as Russia, certainly the US and EU are making money on selling weapons to the Ukraine militia and armed services, while Russia equips the separatists- and Ukraine has all that lovely coal that the EU is now interested in, especially since Germany is embarking on a massive build of coal fired power stations.
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:08 am

Elessar wrote:Was there an edit war or something? I was finding the discussion quite interesting. The British (and Americans) seem to have the attitude that we won the war, the Germans lost, and we had to save the French, which while true kind of puts a spin on commemoration that I don't think is very helpful. Commemoration should be about remembering the dead, not celebrating a victory, bemoaning a defeat, or expecting renewed gratitude from countries we helped. I also feel uncomfortable with the idea that my personal relationship with the war is somehow different to that of a German counterpart, and I would hope that it isn't.


well said

what we as individuals of four generations since the war should do, is look at the whole package with an open mind. not just the movie but also all the extra's, making off's and interviews.

if we can't look at the facts and are open to call into questions SOME of our responsability (and throw away the lessons they learned us in first grade that germany was the boogey man and every one else were peace doves), then i really fear for the future of peace in europe
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:12 am

Tarkus wrote:
magic action wrote:people always say "we" didnt learn from the war, but "we" never wanted the first two world wars in the first place. it's rather "we" were called to duty by the establishment, and the powerfull elite who wanted to extent their economic power. the elite in france, britain, germany,... ALL wanted to maintain their wealth and extent it even more.

italy stayed out of the war the longest due to a strong socialist opposition, but as time went on they had to bent for the constant calls from the economical elite, that war means business, and business means money.

to this end, they used millions and millions of innocent people who were brainwashed by nationalist propaganda to the point they wanted the war too. and if propaganda didnt help to convince working class men to fight, they were forced to or punished as deserters.

"we" didnt have to learn anything. its the fucking economic elite that should, and so far they havent learned a damn, they have only further damaged our world with wars and environmental disasters


I know what you mean- it seems the only people who profit from wars nowadays are the arms manufacturers, petroleum companies and those that support them. It's an interesting fact that at the end of WW1, once the Ottoman empire was partitioned, the Royal Navy embarked upon a massive scheme to modernise the fleet from coal burning ships to oil burning ships, at a cost of over a million pounds, which was serious cash at that time. The fleet could only do that because of the partition, which enabled the allied powers to play the newly created buffer states off against each other for mutual advantage. We've been doing that ever since, supporting Iran against Iraq, Iraq against Iran, and so on and on. I strongly suspect that even the situation in Ukraine is being manipulated by us just as much as Russia, certainly the US and EU are making money on selling weapons to the Ukraine militia and armed services, while Russia equips the separatists- and Ukraine has all that lovely coal that the EU is now interested in, especially since Germany is embarking on a massive build of coal fired power stations.


if more and more people see the role the economic elite had and have in world scale wars, then "we" will truly have learned something.

but all this "we should learn from the past, we shouldt go to war anymore" is nonsense. if tomorrow the elite decides to start WWIII you can bet your ass every male between 18 and 40 will be called to arms, no questions asked. those who refuse will be punished. like what happened in WWI and II.
so i suggest we stop looked between ourself, let's begin to look upwards, to where the power lies
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby 1By1 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:18 am

It is becoming clear that we should have helped the Syrian rebels. It may have been a mistake to turn our backs on them. I am generally an anti-war isolationistic but Syria needs help.
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:34 am

I think it's fair to say that virtually all the major wars in my lifetime, at the very least, "appear" to have had ulterior motives. From Korea and Vietnam right through to Afghanistan and Iraq. In the case of the earlier ones, various countries providing arms to those involved, to severe overtones of mineral and fossil fuel rights to the later ones.

Go back to the two world wars, and any ulterior motives become a lot less apparent, outside of pre-signed treaties between nations, and the relative nobility of protecting the sovereign borders of others.

My point was just because wars seem to be based around business economics these days, they weren't always so.

Also, it's one thing being a pacifist, but I think it's fairly realistic to also believe, that if America and it's allies hadn't gone to war, most of Europe would be speaking German as a first language by now, and most of the Far East would be part of the Japanese Empire.

As regards Syria, it seems these days, you only get intervention if you have "assets" and can afford to compensate the people helping you after the event.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:54 am

Kes wrote:I think it's fair to say that virtually all the major wars in my lifetime, at the very least, "appear" to have had ulterior motives. From Korea and Vietnam right through to Afghanistan and Iraq. In the case of the earlier ones, various countries providing arms to those involved, to severe overtones of mineral and fossil fuel rights to the later ones.

Go back to the two world wars, and any ulterior motives become a lot less apparent, outside of pre-signed treaties between nations, and the relative nobility of protecting the sovereign borders of others.

My point was just because wars seem to be based around business economics these days, they weren't always so.

Also, it's one thing being a pacifist, but I think it's fairly realistic to also believe, that if America and it's allies hadn't gone to war, most of Europe would be speaking German as a first language by now, and most of the Far East would be part of the Japanese Empire.


but wwI happened hot on the heels of the industrial revolution. the industrial revolution created "new riches" that became power hungry now that they got power for the first time since man existed. before that wealth was measured by the amount of land you had (the nobles) or if you were a member of the catholic elite. now, all these industrials got to join the playground, and power hungry as they were (and still are) they wanted to improve their wealth even more, at all costs.

also, contrary to the nobles and catholics, these new bourgeoisy people started to gather in their smoking rooms, discussing all sorts of intellectual power talk. this produced the so called "enlightment" and all secret societies connected with them. their power over everything that happens in the world is indisputable
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:55 am

Kes wrote:I think it's fair to say that virtually all the major wars in my lifetime, at the very least, "appear" to have had ulterior motives. From Korea and Vietnam right through to Afghanistan and Iraq. In the case of the earlier ones, various countries providing arms to those involved, to severe overtones of mineral and fossil fuel rights to the later ones.

Go back to the two world wars, and any ulterior motives become a lot less apparent, outside of pre-signed treaties between nations, and the relative nobility of protecting the sovereign borders of others.

My point was just because wars seem to be based around business economics these days, they weren't always so.

Also, it's one thing being a pacifist, but I think it's fairly realistic to also believe, that if America and it's allies hadn't gone to war, most of Europe would be speaking German as a first language by now, and most of the Far East would be part of the Japanese Empire.


if america didnt loan us the money to keep the war going, the war would have stopped of its own when all the munitia would have been fired. america desperately needed to me a major player on the credit market, so the billions of loans they started to lent europe just before the end of WWI, was a major factor in america's rise to world domination ever after
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:03 am

On the other hand, because Germany invaded Poland, and subsequent countries, they had the resources to keep going pretty much indefinitely, well at least until they came up against something that was going to either stop them or slow them down.

You've got to face it, apart from the death camps and the SS, they had a very impressive and effective work ethic.

I love the various ways they tried getting round the treaty of Versailles
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Elessar » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:04 am

Kes wrote:Also, it's one thing being a pacifist, but I think it's fairly realistic to also believe, that if America and it's allies hadn't gone to war, most of Europe would be speaking German as a first language by now, and most of the Far East would be part of the Japanese Empire.


And if that was the case, we'd all be fluent in German. Would we resent it?
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:07 am

You'd have to ask someone who lives in an occupied nation.

I don't think we really have the slightest clue what it's like. Israel and Palestine are a kind of modern day equivalent, I suppose.

Oh, and but for a stretch of water, and a tenacious ability to defend that stretch of water, the Germans would have found Britain fairly easy meat.

They weren't prepared to go through a turkey shoot like the start of D-Day was. They weren't stupid.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:13 am

Kes wrote:On the other hand, because Germany invaded Poland, and subsequent countries, they had the resources to keep going pretty much indefinitely, well at least until they came up against something that was going to either stop them or slow them down.

You've got to face it, apart from the death camps and the SS, they had a very impressive and effective work ethic.

I love the various ways they tried getting round the treaty of Versailles


i prefer we stop talking about "germany" "france" "belgium" "britain" as acting agents by themselves. by doing so, you're throwing an immense amount of people on the same heap, effectively reducing the war to a war between a handfull of entities.

when are we going to understand that people (who are long dead) are totally and utterly responsible for a) starting the war b) continuing the war c) profiting of the war. do you imagine how stupid it looks when someone says "britain" should learn from lessons of the past. since when has britain a fucking brain? what is britain? who is britain? its the first major mistake you make when commenting on the war.

rather the question should be asked "what happened with the millions of money spend on weapons? the money america got in payment of loans? where did the money go? who is earning oney today as a result of war? no one is asking these questions, its always aimed at joe public, we are always forced to bend our heads and think about our deeds as a human being in the past, but we forget its only maybe 1% of the people in a country (probably not even that) who are responsible for the war
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:20 am

Who chose to take part in the first Gulf War?

The governments of various countries, most of those governments voted in by the respective countries Joe Publics, not the businesses that stood to profit.

I wish it really was as simple to be able to lay all the blame in one corner, but invariably it isn't that easy.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:21 am

look up the prosecutions in italy during the great war for desertion. millions of italians didnt want to go fighting, but they were forced by the establishment. some stupid steel producer didnt like italy was neutral, and the weak italian government bowed to their demands. the result? joe public was called to arms.

let's remember one thing here: that millions of innocent people, were wondering why the hell the ended up on the battlefield, to them the world was going into oblivion and they had no fucking clue what was going on.

imagine being forced a gun in your hand and you're told to "shoot that filthy german". i would be wondering "why is he filthy, what did he do? he's probably a working man just like me.

what they didnt know is that, behind the curtain, the elite were dividing the money and enjoying the show like they were playing some real time command & conquer game
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:23 am

Kes wrote:Who chose to take part in the first Gulf War?

The governments of various countries, most of those governments voted in by the respective countries Joe Publics, not the businesses that stood to profit.

I wish it really was as simple to be able to lay all the blame in one corner, but invariably it isn't that easy.


are you really that naive?

in america, the government is sponsored by the economic world. the president is a pawn that is sponsored by the economics. do you think it is possible for ANYONE to be part of the government if they arent part of a party, that in turn has to comply the demands of their respective members? dream on
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