The Great War 1914-1918.

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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:32 am

Not so much naive, as just free minded. Free minded to assess the available data and formulate my OWN opinion.

Possibly, just like you most likely are. Afford me THAT luxury, please.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:39 am

Kes wrote:Not so much naive, as just free minded. Free minded to assess the available data and formulate my OWN opinion.

Possibly, just like you most likely are. Afford me THAT luxury, please.


you are perfectly entitled to do so. i'm totally ok with people closing their eyes for the unimaginable crime that was committed 100 years ago that led to 6.000.000 deaths on the crimescene. i'm also perfectly clear if you want to make up some sort of explanation that gives you some kind of peace, which makes you believe its all part of 100 year old history, whose circumstances were so specific to that time that it wont happen again. i'm here to tell you that the same kind of people that started the war 100 years ago cant wait anymore to start WWIII as soon as possible, they are already doing so actually. but ok, ignore me if you will. relish in your "luxury".

"it's hard to believe the size of the crime" said some rock artist.

EDIT: i'm not saying you're trying to forget WWI, should have worded that better: i said you're closing your eyes for the REAL reasons of WWI.
Last edited by action on Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby JLP » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:41 am

Elessar wrote:Was there an edit war or something? I was finding the discussion quite interesting. The British (and Americans) seem to have the attitude that we won the war, the Germans lost, and we had to save the French, which while true kind of puts a spin on commemoration that I don't think is very helpful. Commemoration should be about remembering the dead, not celebrating a victory, bemoaning a defeat, or expecting renewed gratitude from countries we helped. I also feel uncomfortable with the idea that my personal relationship with the war is somehow different to that of a German counterpart, and I would hope that it isn't.



yeah I think some had been edited whilst others had been deleted. Not by me in the first instance.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:46 am

JLP wrote:
Elessar wrote:Was there an edit war or something? I was finding the discussion quite interesting. The British (and Americans) seem to have the attitude that we won the war, the Germans lost, and we had to save the French, which while true kind of puts a spin on commemoration that I don't think is very helpful. Commemoration should be about remembering the dead, not celebrating a victory, bemoaning a defeat, or expecting renewed gratitude from countries we helped. I also feel uncomfortable with the idea that my personal relationship with the war is somehow different to that of a German counterpart, and I would hope that it isn't.



yeah I think some had been edited whilst others had been deleted. Not by me in the first instance.


i deleted them myself because a) this thread is about a very emotion laden topic, and the last thing i wanted was to derail it b) i thought it was getting on dangerous ground which i never wanted. i wanted a serene intellectual discussion and review some of the motives that led to WWI. some people took offence, thought i was bullseying the british while that was far from the truth. i left my original post which i fully stand behind, and no where in there, nor in the posts that followed did i single out anyone but the elite
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:46 am

Ok, so let's put this another way, action.

You live in Belgium, and German tanks start rolling over your border. What do you do? Roll over and say "Here's my keys, trash my house, and why don't you kill my family into the bargain?"

If your solution WAS the definitive solution, I'd have shut up hours ago. :shock:

And yes, wars ARE criminal.

On the side topic of edit wars, we both independently removed our respective posts. action first, then me. Nobody "made" either of us do it.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Elessar » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:49 am

Kes wrote:You'd have to ask someone who lives in an occupied nation.

I don't think we really have the slightest clue what it's like. Israel and Palestine are a kind of modern day equivalent, I suppose.

Oh, and but for a stretch of water, and a tenacious ability to defend that stretch of water, the Germans would have found Britain fairly easy meat.

They weren't prepared to go through a turkey shoot like the start of D-Day was. They weren't stupid.


France invaded in 1066. We wouldn't describe the UK as being occupied by France. It's impossible to predict how things would have panned out over the intervening century. Maybe we'd all be speaking German; maybe (more likely) we'd still be speaking English. In any case, a century would have passed by, and successive generations would have been brought up in that reality. I agree that it's good that things panned out the way they did and not any other way, but if they had done, I don't think we'd particularly resent it.

Palestinians don't speak Hebrew. Once the occupied people start speaking the language of their captors, they stop being captors and become citizens.
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:53 am

Kes wrote:Ok, so let's put this another way, action.

You live in Belgium, and German tanks start rolling over your border. What do you do? Roll over and say "Here's my keys, trash my house, and why don't you kill my family into the bargain?"

If your solution WAS the definitive solution, I'd have shut up hours ago. :shock:

And yes, wars ARE criminal.


i wont deny that.

but 100 years later, and despite being a belgian, i am honest enough to see that not every german soldier WANTED to be there. well we've got hitler somewhere around there so we have that exception. but let me ask you this:

you are a german with a wife and kids, can put food on the table in reasonable amounts, but yes its crisis but youre happy with your wife and children. suddenly "the letter arives like a bolt from the blue": you're called to duty. you have no choice its fighting or being imprisoned. throw in some propaganda fabricated by the elite, and like million others you go fighting. after all you as a good housedad, how would you oppose the esteblsihment, you're nothing but a shrimp in the sea.

how would YOU feel Kes? and on top of that, after the war (if you survive that is) being known as the "filthy germans that started the war" ever after?

people dont WANT war, the elite does
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:59 am

In the case of WWII, Hitler was voted in democratically, even though it evolved into a dictatorship. I think Germans can't really forget what was done in their name, but the situation snowballed around them, whether they liked it or not.

Let's not forget that when the first Gulf War happened I WAS part of the machinery. When you agree with the ethics of something, "being there" is much easier. Luckily for me, by the time Gulf War II happened, I was out of it, so I didn't have a conflict of interest between what I believed, and what I might have been made to do.

I understand your points, but coming from a different set of experiences, don't necessarily agree 150% with them.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby action » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:03 am

Kes wrote:In the case of WWII, Hitler was voted in democratically, even though it evolved into a dictatorship. I think Germans can't really forget what was done in their name, but the situation snowballed around them, whether they liked it or not.

Let's not forget that when the first Gulf War happened I WAS part of the machinery. When you agree with the ethics of something, "being there" is much easier. Luckily for me, by the time Gulf War II happened, I was out of it, so I didn't have a conflict of interest between what I believed, and what I might have been made to do.

I understand your points, but coming from a different set of experiences, don't necessarily agree 150% with them.


fair enough.

this should be the point where i buy you some of belgian finest beer then, have a piss and a laugh and be friends ever after :P
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:07 am

Elessar wrote:
France invaded in 1066. We wouldn't describe the UK as being occupied by France. It's impossible to predict how things would have panned out over the intervening century. Maybe we'd all be speaking German; maybe (more likely) we'd still be speaking English. In any case, a century would have passed by, and successive generations would have been brought up in that reality. I agree that it's good that things panned out the way they did and not any other way, but if they had done, I don't think we'd particularly resent it.

Palestinians don't speak Hebrew. Once the occupied people start speaking the language of their captors, they stop being captors and become citizens.


Tricky. Between 1940 and 1944 half of France accepted occupation, and became able to effectively govern themselves as an ally to Germany. The other half remained not very keen on being occupied, and the Germans occupied it more forcefully. Two completely different scenarios in one country in one time. After the event, the whole of France hated the Vichy government for what they had done, but a lot less of the population got executed in the area where they rolled over.

It provides interesting reading, the Royal Navy sinking French warships, with their crews on board, when you were of the belief we were on the same side.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:10 am

magic action wrote:
fair enough.

this should be the point where i buy you some of belgian finest beer then, have a piss and a laugh and be friends ever after :P


At the end of the day, wars are big f*ck-off arguments that have gone beyond being able to have a beer over. They should never have got that far, but they did, and once you're in one, it's a bastard to get back out of it. That's the point where your economists jump in, and sell you a Tomahawk cruise missile for half a million euros.

I agree with a lot of your principles, just not all of them, and I think vice versa too.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Tarkus » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:24 am

Elessar wrote:
Kes wrote:Also, it's one thing being a pacifist, but I think it's fairly realistic to also believe, that if America and it's allies hadn't gone to war, most of Europe would be speaking German as a first language by now, and most of the Far East would be part of the Japanese Empire.


And if that was the case, we'd all be fluent in German. Would we resent it?


I don't think we'd be fluent in German at all- possibly as a second language, but not as a first. Hitler didn't wanbt to go to war with Britain, he saw us as potential allies- at best, if we'd not declared war and remained neutral, we'd be left alone (He only instigated Operation Sealion AFTER we'd declared war) and would have probably traded with Germany instead. The US would have stayed neutral, and Hitler would have been stopped when he reached the USSR. Stalin would have counter-attacked as he had done, but this time, without allies on the Western front going the opposite way, the war would have been much longer and drawn out, with Stalin eventually conquering Western Europe. We'd almost certainly be considering emigrating to America or learning Russian by then. The Japanese would have been too busy fighting the USSR in China to worry about attacking the US as well- the world would have been a much more different place than it turned out to be.

Our propaganda machine still hails WW2 as an allied victory, with the allies meaning mainly GB Canada, Australia and the US- but the true victors of the war were the USSR, who were also our allies- it was their massive counter-attack that re-drew the map of Eastern Europe for four decades and broke the back of the Nazi war machine.
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Tarkus » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:29 am

magic action wrote:rather the question should be asked "what happened with the millions of money spend on weapons? the money america got in payment of loans? where did the money go? who is earning oney today as a result of war? no one is asking these questions, its always aimed at joe public, we are always forced to bend our heads and think about our deeds as a human being in the past, but we forget its only maybe 1% of the people in a country (probably not even that) who are responsible for the war


The main thing to consider is how the US political machine works. The senate and congress are in the pockets of the rich and powerful, and many bills that are passed have been made as a result of direct financial interference from various businesses. If a policy goes against the interests of a particular business cartel, you can bet your arse they'll pay a congressman or two to scupper it. It's the same in the House of Lords and most politicians here, many of them are either CEOs of companies or senior shareholders with vested interests. Sure, the government makes a big thing about 'democracy' and 'freedom', but in truth, the US is an oligarchy- the parties are only really there to create an illusion of choice. It's beginning to get very much like that in the UK, too.
 
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby JLP » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:34 am

Would we, and by we I mean us actual individuals, be here if WW2 had ended up in defeat? Now there is a debate to be had.
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Re: The Great War 1914-1918.

Postby Kes » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:34 am

Neutrality, a good point, Tarkus.

Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland all expressed a wish to remain neutral before the Germans invaded them anyway. Obviously, some neutral countries remained neutral, like Spain, Switzerland, and ROI, but there were probably other extenuating circumstances.
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