Never forget this elephant.

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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby action » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:39 am

Leigh Burne wrote:I thought we'd established there's no way to know it was crying? There could be a hundred reasons why it's eyes were weeping. Hell, my dog's eyes weep all the time, I'm always having to wipe them, I can assure you he isn't abused, the bastard lives better than I do.


you seriously have a "cry" OCD: i dont care if the creatures cries or not. why are you lot always pulling the "cry" card?

i can accept that we dont know WHY the elephant cries. but does that matter? the point stays: you never torture animals, wether the animal cries for it of dances the lambada in gratitude
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:41 am

Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:Nice example. What do you think the major similarities between a wealthy Western CEO with a pet dog and an elephant handler in a state of India where 30% of citizens are below the poverty line are?


Earlier - like last night - yesterday, you said the elephant's owner was feeding his family and or children from the proceeds of keeping the elephant. How do you know this? How do you know he has children and if so, how old are they? I don't believe that was mentioned in any of the articles I've read about this particular case.


This is the problem you've had throughout this entire thread. You're focussing on this one man rather than looking at the wider issues. I've no idea what his personal circumstances are. I've met maybe half a dozen elephant handlers, mostly in Nepal but one in India, not too far from where this elephant was kept, and they're all extremely poor. Some have kids, some are still kids themselves. Many sleep with their elephants to build up trust. The elephants are no doubt treated badly, but so are the handlers. They're not to blame. The industry is to blame, and the industry is entirely tourist driven. I'm other words, tourists are to blame.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Leigh Burne » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:44 am

magic action wrote:you seriously have a "cry" OCD: i dont care if the creatures cries or not. why are you lot always pulling the "cry" card?

You were the one who just brought up the crying again. Yet like you said, it's utterly irrelevant compared to what was actually done.
Last edited by Leigh Burne on Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:45 am

Elessar wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:Nice example. What do you think the major similarities between a wealthy Western CEO with a pet dog and an elephant handler in a state of India where 30% of citizens are below the poverty line are?


Earlier - like last night - yesterday, you said the elephant's owner was feeding his family and or children from the proceeds of keeping the elephant. How do you know this? How do you know he has children and if so, how old are they? I don't believe that was mentioned in any of the articles I've read about this particular case.


This is the problem you've had throughout this entire thread. You're focussing on this one man rather than looking at the wider issues. I've no idea what his personal circumstances are. I've met maybe half a dozen elephant handlers, mostly in Nepal but one in India, not too far from where this elephant was kept, and they're all extremely poor. Some have kids, some are still kids themselves. Many sleep with their elephants to build up trust. The elephants are no doubt treated badly, but so are the handlers. They're not to blame. The industry is to blame, and the industry is entirely tourist driven. I'm other words, tourists are to blame.


I'll agree with that last part, at least. Yes, anyone that pays for animal entertainment is to blame and that includes SeaWorld and any facility that has a marine park of any kind. The only ones that are excusable are the ones like Winter, the dolphin, is kept in because it's a hospital, not an amusement park. Don't buy a ticket - simple as that. Anyone who does is guilty of continuing the crimes against nature.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:46 am

magic action wrote:
Leigh Burne wrote:I thought we'd established there's no way to know it was crying? There could be a hundred reasons why it's eyes were weeping. Hell, my dog's eyes weep all the time, I'm always having to wipe them, I can assure you he isn't abused, the bastard lives better than I do.


you seriously have a "cry" OCD: i dont care if the creatures cries or not. why are you lot always pulling the "cry" card?

i can accept that we dont know WHY the elephant cries. but does that matter? the point stays: you never torture animals, wether the animal cries for it of dances the lambada in gratitude


I completely agree, and I've said so many times.
I only raised the crying issue because I'm sick of the arrogance of people who think they're Dr Dolittle and can read animals' minds.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:47 am

And all we are asking for in this petition is to not give the elephant back to the man who had it and beat it, kept it in chains with barbs in them and didn't feed it. The petition does not ask for that man to be prosecuted.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:48 am

Elessar wrote:I completely agree, and I've said so many times.
I only raised the crying issue because I'm sick of the arrogance of people who think they're Dr Dolittle and can read animals' minds.

It was animal or more so, elephant, experts who said the elephant was crying. We are just repeating what THEY said. I think they know more about elephant behavior than the rest of us.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby action » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:50 am

Elessar wrote:
magic action wrote:
Leigh Burne wrote:I thought we'd established there's no way to know it was crying? There could be a hundred reasons why it's eyes were weeping. Hell, my dog's eyes weep all the time, I'm always having to wipe them, I can assure you he isn't abused, the bastard lives better than I do.


you seriously have a "cry" OCD: i dont care if the creatures cries or not. why are you lot always pulling the "cry" card?

i can accept that we dont know WHY the elephant cries. but does that matter? the point stays: you never torture animals, wether the animal cries for it of dances the lambada in gratitude


I completely agree, and I've said so many times.
I only raised the crying issue because I'm sick of the arrogance of people who think they're Dr Dolittle and can read animals' minds.


still, that doesnt change my firm belief that the elephant DID cry as a result of a cathartic release of emotions built up during 50 years of torture. but, i dont use this belief to back up my claims, it's just a personal belief nothing more. i'm intelectually honest enough not to use this in the discussion, i'll let the law do that work for me.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:56 am

Crying? Fine. Tears of joy? Come on.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby action » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:58 am

Elessar wrote:Crying? Fine. Tears of joy? Come on.


feeling surprised?

imagine how the scientists in the old times felt when it was discovered the earth was round and not flat...

always question your beliefs, elessar. its the first thing they teach you at uni.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:03 pm

magic action wrote:
Elessar wrote:Crying? Fine. Tears of joy? Come on.


feeling surprised?

imagine how the scientists in the old times felt when it was discovered the earth was round and not flat...

always question your beliefs, elessar. its the first thing they teach you at uni.


Yeah. I'm questioning the belief that a group of humans could know they were tears of joy.

And there has never been a scientific belief that the world is flat.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:21 pm

Innuendoes wrote:
Elessar wrote:I completely agree, and I've said so many times.
I only raised the crying issue because I'm sick of the arrogance of people who think they're Dr Dolittle and can read animals' minds.

It was animal or more so, elephant, experts who said the elephant was crying. We are just repeating what THEY said. I think they know more about elephant behavior than the rest of us.


I probably know more about my immediate family than you do, but if I said my great grandfather lived to 137, you'd be well within your right to doubt me, even though there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I know more about him than you do.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Inny » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:35 am

The Last Animals: A documentary film by Kate Brooks about Africa's poaching epidemic.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/18 ... st-animals
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:32 am

Well, just had a chance to check emails.


A message from the campaign to
Stop Animal Testing and Experiments
Update #3 Queen legend supports NZ ban on cosmetics animal testing.
Posted By: Orange for Animal Cruelty Awareness (campaign leader)

Queen legend supports NZ ban on cosmetics animal testing.

Image

http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/queen-le ... g/5/201338
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby YAFF » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:50 am

Inny wrote:
Spoiler! :
Image


"When humans act with cruelty we characterize them as 'animals', yet the only animal that displays cruelty is humanity." ~ A.D. Williams
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