Never forget this elephant.

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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:26 pm

YAFF wrote:
Inny wrote:
Spoiler! :
Image


"When humans act with cruelty we characterize them as 'animals', yet the only animal that displays cruelty is humanity." ~ A.D. Williams


Spoiler! :


Presumably the evolutionary advantage to this is it's practice, perhaps for when food is more scarce. Or perhaps slowly killing them is safer than an all out fight, which could end badly for both of them, especially if the mouse is diseased. But if you anthropomorphise, it looks pretty cruel!
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby buskersude » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:36 pm

Chimps also display acts of cruelty, and not always as punishment.
Killer Whales also display acts of cruelty by throwing seals around like toys, with some footage even showing that the seal is not always even eaten at the end of it. Just pure Killer Whale 'fun'.

I am sure there are other examples of animal on animal cruelty.

Not that it justifies any human inflicted suffering, but we are not really so different from the animal world, we are after all just animals ourselves. Just because we have over generations learnt to supress some of our baser instincts, doesn't mean we are better or worse than other animals.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:37 am

Killer Whales, the largest members of the dolphin family, do play with their food, however they don't kill just to kill. They do eventually eat the seals after they play with the dead bodies for a while. It's considered by some as training for the younger orcas to watch and learn how to kill their prey. They even kill sharks but one thing they do that is awesome is to protect humans being attacked by sharks if they are in the area. I've seen this happen on video quite a bit. The smaller dolphins will do the same, however, I don't think they kill sharks - they just ram them until they drive them away from the humans.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:39 am

Of course, the humans that the whales didn't protect aren't here to tell the tale!
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:43 am

Elessar wrote:Of course, the humans that the whales didn't protect aren't here to tell the tale!

The ocean isn't full of orcas and their family pods travel on migration, north and south, depending on the time of year, from one continent to another. Therefore, specific pods that travel in their areas are not always in any given area, depending on the season. Unless, of course, they're a transient pod which aren't very common. However, there are not enough orca to cover the entire ocean and one can travel for days without seeing a pod.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby buskersude » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:29 pm

Innuendoes wrote:Killer Whales, the largest members of the dolphin family, do play with their food, however they don't kill just to kill. They do eventually eat the seals after they play with the dead bodies for a while. It's considered by some as training for the younger orcas to watch and learn how to kill their prey. They even kill sharks but one thing they do that is awesome is to protect humans being attacked by sharks if they are in the area. I've seen this happen on video quite a bit. The smaller dolphins will do the same, however, I don't think they kill sharks - they just ram them until they drive them away from the humans.



I take your point, but the documentary I saw followed a pod for over two years and saw many incidences where the seal was not eaten after but simply abandoned to die, if not already dead. No youngsters in sight sometimes... Just two or three adults playing toss the seal.
That's what the docu said anyway.

It's too easy to suggest humans are the only animal capable of any one thing.
We're not the only ones with language, or physical dexterity ( as in tool use etc).
We're not the only farmers, nor builders.
We don't monopolise thought, empathy or emotion.
We're not the only problem solvers.

We do however take cruelty to new levels, I admit that, but that marks the major difference between human and general animal behaviour... We always take things too far, over do things, are greedy.
You don't tend to see overweight animals unless in captivity do you.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:38 pm

buskersude wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:Killer Whales, the largest members of the dolphin family, do play with their food, however they don't kill just to kill. They do eventually eat the seals after they play with the dead bodies for a while. It's considered by some as training for the younger orcas to watch and learn how to kill their prey. They even kill sharks but one thing they do that is awesome is to protect humans being attacked by sharks if they are in the area. I've seen this happen on video quite a bit. The smaller dolphins will do the same, however, I don't think they kill sharks - they just ram them until they drive them away from the humans.



I take your point, but the documentary I saw followed a pod for over two years and saw many incidences where the seal was not eaten after but simply abandoned to die, if not already dead. No youngsters in sight sometimes... Just two or three adults playing toss the seal.
That's what the docu said anyway.

It's too easy to suggest humans are the only animal capable of any one thing.
We're not the only ones with language, or physical dexterity ( as in tool use etc).
We're not the only farmers, nor builders.
We don't monopolise thought, empathy or emotion.
We're not the only problem solvers.

We do however take cruelty to new levels, I admit that, but that marks the major difference between human and general animal behaviour... We always take things too far, over do things, are greedy.
You don't tend to see overweight animals unless in captivity do you.


First of all, what documentary are you talking about? Who were the scientists who were involved in filming that or working along side the orca?

As far as overweight animals in captivity - sure there are some. As far as orcas are concerned, if anything, they are underweight and sick when they are kept in facilities such as SeaWorld, Loro Parque, etc. Their lifespans are drastically shortened, they get no real exercise, they can't breach in a tank like a wild orca can and they can't get the same amount of exercise that a wild orca can. A wild orca swims around 100 miles per day. A captive orca swims, maybe 4 miles per day. After that, they are locked in tanks in the dark.

Therefore, they are highly stressed and will act out. They are forced to be tubed and force fed gel and antibiotics due to the bacteria that is ingested from swallowing chlorine and their own feces all day which causes ulcers and infections. They are animals that live in family groups and learn from their family members. The adults teach the young how to hunt and kill. Each pod is a separate family that speaks a different language. When caught by man and put in tanks they are forced to live with orca that are not their family and do not speak their language. Females dominate the males and cause massive bleeding by raking their teeth across the male's skin and this is due to stress and the fact that they are with orca that are not their own family. I could go on for quite a while but, I suggest you watch Blackfish and also documentaries with Dr Ingrid Visser before you discuss this, further.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby buskersude » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:57 pm

First up, I don't remember what documentary it was, I don't have an eidetic memory, but I am fairly sure it was BBC, so fairly reliable (on nature at least). I do remember the conversation in my house after the doc, which was centred around everyone's shock at this display of cruelty by the whales.

Secondly, I don't understand why you think I may need to watch your recommended doc in order for me to be able to discuss this topic with knowledge.
I know already all that captive animals of all descriptions go through, compared to their natural behaviour. I am an avid learner Inny, which means I am not stuck in the mud like some people in their knowledge of the world.

Also, your post seems to imply that I am somehow in favour of the captivation of whales etc. Which I am not.
Whales are little understood, but a few things we do know now is that they are intelligent, use language, have complicated social structures and are empathic.
All that actually lends weight to an argument for them being capable of cruelty. I'm sorry if you find it hard to accept, but as I said, as we discover and learn more about the world so our knowledge changes. Sometimes shockingly, sometimes surprisingly, sometimes frighteningly but change none the less.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:01 pm

buskersude wrote:All that actually lends weight to an argument for them being capable of cruelty. I'm sorry if you find it hard to accept, but as I said, as we discover and learn more about the world so our knowledge changes. Sometimes shockingly, sometimes surprisingly, sometimes frighteningly but change none the less.


No - you are using SeaWorld's excuse to keep orca and other species of dolphins in tanks. SeaWorld has been open since 1964 and still knows basically nothing about orca, other than how much medication they need to shove down their throats on a daily basis to keep them from dying. We have not learned anything.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:05 pm

Innuendoes wrote:
buskersude wrote:All that actually lends weight to an argument for them being capable of cruelty. I'm sorry if you find it hard to accept, but as I said, as we discover and learn more about the world so our knowledge changes. Sometimes shockingly, sometimes surprisingly, sometimes frighteningly but change none the less.


No - you are using SeaWorld's excuse to keep orca and other species of dolphins in tanks. SeaWorld has been open since 1964 and still knows basically nothing about orca, other than how much medication they need to shove down their throats on a daily basis to keep them from dying. We have not learned anything.


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you to say that is a good reason to keep them in captivity. However, I still have never seen orca kill just to kill. They do eat what they kill. They play with it for a while and that is natural because they are teaching their young how to kill. For instances, if they are going to kill a shark, they have to manipulate it into position so they can get it on it's back. That way, it drowns. They have other techniques for rays, even the deadliest types. This all takes practice or they risk death, themselves.

BTW, I sent you a message via here, yesterday. You have still not read it.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby buskersude » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:07 pm

It does have to be said that cats and dogs are also cruel at times.
I have seen dogs bullying others.
Cats are well known to play with creatures until near or actual death but not bothering to eat.

Again I am not defending humanity in any way, we really ought to know better, at the very least.
Mankind is little more than a virus, when we were given the opportunity to be janitors, or gardeners if you like, to help the earth flourish.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:13 pm

buskersude wrote:It does have to be said that cats and dogs are also cruel at times.
I have seen dogs bullying others.
Cats are well known to play with creatures until near or actual death but not bothering to eat.

Again I am not defending humanity in any way, we really ought to know better, at the very least.
Mankind is little more than a virus, when we were given the opportunity to be janitors, or gardeners if you like, to help the earth flourish.
To quote a certain Qoler, Pah!


Yes it's true about dogs and cats, however, I was talking about cetaceans. :)

Anyway, agreed on humans. This earth would be just fine without us. We are the scourge of this planet.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby buskersude » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:24 pm

I was already talking in a general way, in my post about the whales I also mentioned chimps etc. so I threw in the cats and dogs as an oversight from my first post.
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:30 pm

buskersude wrote:I was already talking in a general way, in my post about the whales I also mentioned chimps etc. so I threw in the cats and dogs as an oversight from my first post.


I am not all that familiar with chimp behavior. I don't study them like I do cetaceans. As far as dogs and cats, I have had many dogs and I have quite a few cats right now. I had cats the day they brought me home from the hospital after I was born and have never been without them in my life. While mine are not allowed outdoors, I have seen many play with mice or birds and seen cats kill both, just to play with the body. I think for them, the hunting instinct is just so strong and they are top predators in a way - at least compared to their prey. The neighbor's dog, here, likes to kill rabbits, just to thrash their bodies. I do not believe that is a hunt for food, instinct. There are 2 dogs in that yard. Only 1 kills.
 
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Re: Never forget this elephant.

Postby Elessar » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:08 pm

Discussion of dolphins is pointless here. Unless you simply post "I agree with Innuendoes", you'll be met with hostility and a list of one-sided sources to refer to.
 
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