Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:09 pm

WeeMann wrote:
YAFF wrote:
WeeMann wrote:These things become wrong in human life purely because we have developed a moral system (something that I would struggle to see being argued as natural - it happens nowhere else in the animal kingdom). Incest is also distasteful for us, but, again, it happens right through the animal kingdom. From a 'large picture' evolutionary viewpoint, it's a bad idea, but viewed short term from the standpoint of a small community, it may be necessary to continue the species.
You can't claim something is unnatural purely because you don't like it.


I'm moving away from the "natural" argument as it is just going in circles. It's almost as if you are using "natural" to mean "morally acceptable or normal"


Not at all. You argued earlier in the thread that certain things weren't natural - rape, cannibalism, paedophilia. I've pointed out that these things are perfectly natural, if distasteful to our moral compass.

The fact that our race has been eating meat since time immemorial also means that it is perfectly natural. You may not like it and you may fight against the way the meat is delivered to our table, but it is fact.


And again, I'm not going to continue to play a game of semantics with the word "natural". There's more than one meaning and my ethics argument that you ignored trumps it. So if you're not going to address the ethical argument of the "animal holocaust" our discussion has ended.
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Elessar wrote:What did Linda McCartney die of again, Dr YAFF?


She was not a vegan- she ate dairy- and there has never been a human getting cancer from organic vegan food...Never.
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:25 pm

Since I started this topic several truths remain unblemished:

1. Humans do not need to use, abuse or eat animals to survive and be healthy

2. Consumption of animal products is a real threat to a human's mortality

3. There has never been a case where a human developed a disease from an organic vegan diet. Unless you are allergic to something all vegan food is truly "good" for you

4. Factory farms are inhumane and plain cruel towards animals based on any fair definition of our use of the words "inhumane" or "cruel".

5. Animal agriculture pollutes the environment more THAN ALL INDUSTRIES COMBINED

6. Physiologically humans resemble herbivores in all key areas.
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby WeeMann » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:30 pm

YAFF wrote:And again, I'm not going to continue to play a game of semantics with the word "natural". There's more than one meaning and my ethics argument that you ignored trumps it. So if you're not going to address the ethical argument of the "animal holocaust" our discussion has ended.


So, you argue that it's unnatural for us to eat meat, yet when I offer the argument that it's not, you refuse to discuss that point.

I see how this works.

I won't argue the ethics of the issue as I see little to argue - done in the wrong way it is cruel to the animals we eat - no-one is claiming otherwise. There are however, large areas of the industry which work in a much more humane way, yet I fear it's not even worth bringing this into the discussion.

I'm not trying to change your viewpoint here, I just want you to realise that some of the information you use to argue it is wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see that.
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby Elessar » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:33 pm

YAFF wrote:Since I started this topic several truths remain unblemished

1. Humans do not need to use, abuse or eat animals to survive and be healthy


No arguments to that one

2. Consumption of animal products is a real threat to a human's mortality


I hate to break it to you, but all humans, even vegans, are mortal.

3. There has never been a case where a human developed a disease from an organic vegan diet. Unless you are allergic to something all vegan food is truly "good" for you


Next you'll be saying there's never been a white raven!

4. Factory farms are inhumane and plain cruel towards animals based on any fair definition of our use of the words "inhumane" or "cruel".

5. Animal agriculture pollutes the environment more THAN ALL INDUSTRIES COMBINED


No one's disputing any of these things.

6. Physiologically humans resemble herbivores in all key areas.


Apart from their diet, that is - diet being part of physiology.
 
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:33 pm

WeeMann wrote:So, you argue that it's unnatural for us to eat meat, yet when I offer the argument that it's not, you refuse to discuss that point.

I see how this works.


Not really the case. We used different meanings of the word "natural". I still believe it is unnatural because we have natural herbivore bodies but you use a pedantic example of "natural" that I wouldn't dispute

WeeMann wrote:I won't argue the ethics of the issue as I see little to argue - done in the wrong way it is cruel to the animals we eat - no-one is claiming otherwise. There are however, large areas of the industry which work in a much more humane way, yet I fear it's not even worth bringing this into the discussion.

I'm not trying to change your viewpoint here, I just want you to realise that some of the information you use to argue it is wrong. I'm sorry if you can't see that.
[/quote]

Until I'm proven wrong I won't accept your judgment. I wasn't using your definition of natural so I cannot be wrong about that. Sorry. There is NO SUCH THING as "humane" meat. But here we may go again on the word "humane". The bottom line to me is this: Since we do NOT need to use animals in any way whatsoever to survive and be healthy it is unethical to use,abuse and eat animals. Period. Do you disagree with that and if so, why?
Last edited by YAFF on Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:43 pm

Elessar wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but all humans, even vegans, are mortal.


That's okay since I didn't say otherwise. I'm sure your bright enough to understand the use of "mortality" in this context.

3. There has never been a case where a human developed a disease from an organic vegan diet. Unless you are allergic to something all vegan food is truly "good" for you


Next you'll be saying there's never been a white raven!


anyway :roll: , There has never been a case where a human developed a disease from an organic vegan diet. Unless you are allergic to something all vegan food is truly "good" for you

6. Physiologically humans resemble herbivores in all key areas

Apart from their diet, that is - diet being part of physiology.


It depends on your definition of "natural" so I disagree. Otherwise eating plastic is part of our physiology. Humans resemble herbivores physiologically and biologically
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby WeeMann » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:05 pm

YAFF wrote:
WeeMann wrote:So, you argue that it's unnatural for us to eat meat, yet when I offer the argument that it's not, you refuse to discuss that point.

I see how this works.


Not really the case. We used different meanings of the word "natural". I still believe it is unnatural because we have natural herbivore bodies but you use a pedantic example of "natural" that I wouldn't dispute


Pedantic? I just use the dictionary definition - that's hardly pedantry.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... sh/natural

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... sh/natural
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:50 pm

WeeMann wrote:
YAFF wrote:
WeeMann wrote:So, you argue that it's unnatural for us to eat meat, yet when I offer the argument that it's not, you refuse to discuss that point.

I see how this works.


Not really the case. We used different meanings of the word "natural". I still believe it is unnatural because we have natural herbivore bodies but you use a pedantic example of "natural" that I wouldn't dispute


Pedantic? I just use the dictionary definition - that's hardly pedantry.


Sure it is. You didn't apply all the meanings of the word but stodgily focus on this point that if it happens in nature it is natural. Here is the full definition. Meat eating fails the natural test in most of them:

1nat·u·ral adjective \ˈna-chə-rəl, ˈnach-rəl\
: existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature

: not having any extra substances or chemicals added : not containing anything artificial

: usual or expected

Full Definition of NATURAL

1
: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>
2
a : being in accordance with or determined by nature
b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature
3
a (1) : begotten as distinguished from adopted; also : legitimate (2) : being a relation by actual consanguinity as distinguished from adoption <natural parents>
b : illegitimate <a natural child>
4
: having an essential relation with someone or something : following from the nature of the one in question <his guilt is a natural deduction from the evidence>
5
: implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn <a natural talent for art>
6
: of or relating to nature as an object of study and research
7
: having a specified character by nature <a natural athlete>
8
a : occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not marvelous or supernatural <natural causes>
b : formulated by human reason alone rather than revelation <natural religion> <natural rights>
c : having a normal or usual character <events followed their natural course>
9
: possessing or exhibiting the higher qualities (as kindliness and affection) of human nature <a noble … brother … ever most kind and natural — Shakespeare>
10
a : growing without human care; also : not cultivated <natural prairie unbroken by the plow>
b : existing in or produced by nature : not artificial <natural turf> <natural curiosities>
c : relating to or being natural food
11
a : being in a state of nature without spiritual enlightenment : unregenerate <natural man>
b : living in or as if in a state of nature untouched by the influences of civilization and society
12
a : having a physical or real existence as contrasted with one that is spiritual, intellectual, or fictitious <a corporation is a legal but not a natural person>
b : of, relating to, or operating in the physical as opposed to the spiritual world <natural laws describe phenomena of the physical universe>
13
a : closely resembling an original : true to nature
b : marked by easy simplicity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or constraint
c : having a form or appearance found in nature
14
a : having neither flats nor sharps <the natural scale of C major>
b : being neither sharp nor flat
c : having the pitch modified by the natural sign
15
: of an off-white or beige color
— nat·u·ral·ness noun
See natural defined for English-language learners »
See natural defined for kids »
Examples of NATURAL

furniture made of natural materials
The river forms a natural boundary between the two countries.
natural foods like whole grain bread and fresh vegetables
Gray hair is one of the natural consequences of getting older.
a natural increase in the population
the natural course of the disease
It's perfectly natural to feel nervous before a test.
Origin of NATURAL

Middle English, from Anglo-French naturel, from Latin naturalis of nature, from natura nature
First Known Use: 14th century
Related to NATURAL

Synonyms
born, congenital
Antonyms
nonnatural
[+]more

so you were being pedantic-ish so yes "ish" but maybe not unequivocally
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedant
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedantry
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:28 am

Seems as good of a place as any to put this. I find it unbelievable that humans, namely adults find pleasure in this but to force children to do it for money is even worse. I guess it can get worse?

BREAKING NEWS! Makers of Cruel ‘Crush’ Videos Sentenced to Life Imprisonment

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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby YAFF » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:01 am

Innuendoes wrote:Seems as good of a place as any to put this. I find it unbelievable that humans, namely adults find pleasure in this but to force children to do it for money is even worse. I guess it can get worse?

BREAKING NEWS! Makers of Cruel ‘Crush’ Videos Sentenced to Life Imprisonment

http://blog.petaasiapacific.com/compani ... ed-details


I cannot bear to see the videos that these evil wastes of carbon have done but I find it encouraging that they received these sentences. That's progress
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Re: Speciesism Is Just As Bad As Racism And Sexism

Postby Innuendoes » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:26 am

YAFF wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:Seems as good of a place as any to put this. I find it unbelievable that humans, namely adults find pleasure in this but to force children to do it for money is even worse. I guess it can get worse?

BREAKING NEWS! Makers of Cruel ‘Crush’ Videos Sentenced to Life Imprisonment

http://blog.petaasiapacific.com/compani ... ed-details


I cannot bear to see the videos that these evil wastes of carbon have done but I find it encouraging that they received these sentences. That's progress


I didn't see any videos on the main page. There is a link where one might be able to see some of them but I'm not clicking that. I couldn't take it

Yea, it's progress. But you know, FB allows these types of videos and I've reported some, myself, and gotten emails that they do not violate any FB rules. I would REALLY like to see that change. Then we'll be getting somewhere!
 
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