Try Veganism

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:52 pm

Elessar wrote:That’s a very honest response. And there’s nothing wrong with choosing not to eat meat simply because you can’t stomach the idea of killing and eating other animals. I’ve heard of children who have refused to eat meat after they’ve found out it comes from cows and sheep.


Children are taught to "hate" animals. They naturally love them and that seems universal. It's a a very popular experiment. Get a crib. Place a normal, healthy toddler in the crib with an apple and a bunny. Come back in eight hours. 100 out of 100 times the child will eat the apple and play with the bunny. Only a psychopathic child would harm the bunny.

Elessar wrote:I guess what annoys me a bit Ian when people (and I don’t mean you specifically) backwards engineer their reasons to make others feel bad, when in fact what they’re really doing is making themselves feel better. Someone might stop eating meat for very legitimate health reasons (and there are many good health reasons to do so), but then somehow decided that not only will she become vegetarian for health reasons, but she will also preach to meat-eaters that they are wicked, unethical people for harming animals - she’s done something for health reasons but has somehow also become Dr Doolittle. Is that because she envies her peers for continuing to do what she’s spent all her life enjoying and now can’t? Whatever the reason, it feels insincere, cynical, manipulative and patronising.


Well people are people and with all groups of people there's going to a percentage of assholes.

Elessar wrote:My other problem is that if the absolutism of it all.


Well there's vegetarians (still eat dairy) and all kinds of variations like those who only eat seafood, etc.. But going vegan for ethical reasons will inevitably turn into absolutism. It's just a way of thinking and living. You actually can't logically be a vegan unless you are absolutely. I'm an abolitionist but I'm also a person willing to give praise to anyone making any effort to reduce the unnecessary suffering and death of animals. While I'm an activist- and this may surprise you- I'm rather gentle to people when I'm preaching to them in person. I would be a hypocrite to be judgmental. I'm 48. I've only be a vegan for five of those years. Yes, I wish I had become one sooner but I recognise people can change even after 43 years of habit.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby action » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:34 pm

god that was some goog turkey 8-)

turkey isn't meat is it? it's chicken :-P
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:11 pm

action wrote:god that was some goog turkey 8-)

turkey isn't meat is it? it's chicken :-P


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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:05 pm

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:01 am

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:25 am

YAFF wrote:Image


Sure, but that assumes that eating meat is wrong, otherwise it’s like saying “All things that have ever been legal are wrong”. I agree that it is fair to say that a lot of things we now consider to be wrong were once legal, so the legality of a thing does not necessarily imply that it is morally right. There’s a reasonable amount of overlap though. Murder has never been legal. Giving to charity has always been legal.

Incidentally my three-pillar rationale for not eating meat (environment, ethics, health) is rapidly losing one of its pillars, namely ethics. For the reasons we’ve discussed before I’m increasingly convinced that as long as the animal has a life free of suffering and a painless death, eating meat should be okay at least from an animal welfare perspective (this is of course mostly hypothetical because the state of abattoirs makes the discussion pointless). However, a new ethical argument is starting to replace my previous one, and that is one of necessity vs pleasure. We don’t actually need meat (broadly speaking, caveats accepted etc.), so why eat it? If it’s purely for pleasure, is that a healthy relationship to have with food? If it’s just for pleasure, then we should be able to turn it down if there are good reasons to avoid it, otherwise we’ve become a slave to it and have given up our freedom for the sake of a piece of steak. That same logic could be expanded to sugary food and alcohol and all sorts of other things we consume for no reason other than pleasure, but given that meat also brings with it considerable environmental harm, I don’t know how it can really be justified.
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:09 pm

Elessar wrote:Sure, but that assumes that eating meat is wrong, otherwise it’s like saying “All things that have ever been legal are wrong”. I agree that it is fair to say that a lot of things we now consider to be wrong were once legal, so the legality of a thing does not necessarily imply that it is morally right. There’s a reasonable amount of overlap though. Murder has never been legal. Giving to charity has always been legal.

Incidentally my three-pillar rationale for not eating meat (environment, ethics, health) is rapidly losing one of its pillars, namely ethics. For the reasons we’ve discussed before I’m increasingly convinced that as long as the animal has a life free of suffering and a painless death, eating meat should be okay at least from an animal welfare perspective (this is of course mostly hypothetical because the state of abattoirs makes the discussion pointless). However, a new ethical argument is starting to replace my previous one, and that is one of necessity vs pleasure. We don’t actually need meat (broadly speaking, caveats accepted etc.), so why eat it? If it’s purely for pleasure, is that a healthy relationship to have with food? If it’s just for pleasure, then we should be able to turn it down if there are good reasons to avoid it, otherwise we’ve become a slave to it and have given up our freedom for the sake of a piece of steak. That same logic could be expanded to sugary food and alcohol and all sorts of other things we consume for no reason other than pleasure, but given that meat also brings with it considerable environmental harm, I don’t know how it can really be justified.


I hadn't logged on since I posted this so I'm just seeing your response now. I'll respond later today. I as always appreciate your thoughtful approach to this. The only thing I would say is: Why push back on this issue when it's unequivocally true you don't need to consume animal products? Why not just avoid doing harm when it's reasonably possible to not do any harm. But I'll reply to your post later. Cheers Elessar.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:15 pm

Elessar wrote:
Sure, but that assumes that eating meat is wrong, otherwise it’s like saying “All things that have ever been legal are wrong”. I agree that it is fair to say that a lot of things we now consider to be wrong were once legal, so the legality of a thing does not necessarily imply that it is morally right. There’s a reasonable amount of overlap though. Murder has never been legal. Giving to charity has always been legal.


No it needn't follow that "all things" but, only, that just because something is legal doesn't mean it should be or will always be. Plus I will say it. Harming a sentient being when it isn't in self defense or for survival IS wrong. Now I obviously wouldn't preach such a conclusion (so bluntly) so bluntly when it comes to "food" but if something is morally and/or ethically wrong...it's wrong. "Murder" as defined perhaps but it was permissible to kill slaves. They just didn't call it "murder"

Elessar wrote:Incidentally my three-pillar rationale for not eating meat (environment, ethics, health) is rapidly losing one of its pillars, namely ethics. For the reasons we’ve discussed before I’m increasingly convinced that as long as the animal has a life free of suffering and a painless death, eating meat should be okay at least from an animal welfare perspective (this is of course mostly hypothetical because the state of abattoirs makes the discussion pointless). However, a new ethical argument is starting to replace my previous one, and that is one of necessity vs pleasure. We don’t actually need meat (broadly speaking, caveats accepted etc.), so why eat it? If it’s purely for pleasure, is that a healthy relationship to have with food? If it’s just for pleasure, then we should be able to turn it down if there are good reasons to avoid it, otherwise we’ve become a slave to it and have given up our freedom for the sake of a piece of steak. That same logic could be expanded to sugary food and alcohol and all sorts of other things we consume for no reason other than pleasure, but given that meat also brings with it considerable environmental harm, I don’t know how it can really be justified.


It's a strong argument but I still don't fully agree with the notion "as long as the animal has a life free of suffering and a painless death, eating meat should be okay" because by that logic eating certain disabled humans should also be okay. If that's okay then so be it. I admit it *feels* pedantic when I say that but I believe it's logical. I also simply view it as an infringement on a sentient being's right to life. If it isn't necessary why do it? Especially when you know odds of such a perfectly painless paradigm is vanishingly small I get your point clearly- and yes if it had to be one or the other, sure- but I don't really want to live in a world where it's "okay" to kill and eat something because we want to even if it's painless. I dunno. Reality blows. Predation exists. I just am stricken by this bizarre thing called "love" and a concern for my own integrity. Even if it's ultimately useless at death. Your point about something being okay if it causes no pain, well I love my wife but I could cheat on her all the time and she'd never feel any pain but I won't do it. It's wrong.

The rest of your words are especially intriguing. It's really another facet to put in my veganism equation. Of course that would make me a hypocrite because I do consume things that are harmful to myself, like alcohol, like rich vegan foods. I also have the advantage of having gone about five years eating 100% vegan and I friggin' love food even more than before. I don't miss animal products one bit. I'm just saying that if you're willing to cross that wilderness to get there you can find an ethical paradise flowing with almond milk and agave "honey" (and more vegan choices I ever thought possible)
Last edited by YAFF on Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby action » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:25 pm

suppose you teach a computer what is good and what is evil, and you can achieve this for the full 100%. you program the computer then, so it can achieve true morality on earth, where there is no evil and never will be anymore.

you then give the computer access to the nuclear codes.

what do you think the computer will come up with, as solution to end evil everywhere on earth for all eternity?
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby action » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:46 pm

Elessar, you're using the wrong ethical framework. have you read John Rawls "a theory of justice"? If you haven't, please do. He's one of the most respected ethicist of the last century. Basically what he came up with, and which can be applied to the question "is eating meat wrong", goes as follows.

bare in mind, we're looking for "true" and "just" ethical values. so bare with me, it may sound silly.

Suppose you're an entity that has just been "created". But you're not on earth yet, you haven't even seen earth yet and you don't know how earth looks like, who inhabits earth, or what the "role" of each being on earth is.

the following happens:

1.
you're told by our experiment, that you will be released on earth, and you will be assigned a specific role once you get there. This role could be the following, but not limited to it:
- the role of elessar, human and driving a broken bwm, but all in all in fairly good life standard
- the role of a north pacific salmon
- the role of muhammad, mine worker in the mines of charleroi
- the role of picky, new born chick in a chicken factory
...

ok you get my drift.

2.
you're told that, while you are uncertain which role you would have, you have complete freedom to alter the moral rules that prevail on earth, at your own wish. should you wish that chickens can eat humans, you can. you then take the risk that you will be the chicken. But you see; you DON'T KNOW. So you probably won't chose that. So the tricky part is, you need to come up with moral rules, that will provide ideal conditions, no matter what role you would take part in.

back to your ethical dilemma on eating meat.
would you, in the spaceship, before knowing your role, alter the moral rules in that way that you can eat meat? On the risk that your assigned role is that of the chicken in the factory? wouldn't it, on the contrary, be far safer to just come up with moral rules that provide ideal conditions, no matter what role you will be assigned?

food for thought.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby julymorning » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:53 pm

Image[/quote]

Live tom turkeys without a hen can be hell on spurs and very dangerous.

I hatched one from an egg and made a pet out of him until he finally matured. At the time I rented a cabin on my Mom's property. She would scream for me to come out and get 'Snuggler' nearly every morning that she was attempting to get into her car for work. I'd have to go out with a broom. I have a photo of him perched up on the peak of my storm shelter, but his second favorite perch was the top of her car.

He would flog the crap out of her if I didn't intervene.

Eventually I found him a home with other turkeys including hens. I don't think he ever ended up in a roasting pan, they reported back to me he was quite happy and finally settled down.

Moral of this story, I can imagine justifying eating a Tom Turkey if he has to live without a mate(s). Or, anyone for Turkey fries? :lol:
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This is probably as good as it gets.

      
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:36 pm

action wrote:Elessar, you're using the wrong ethical framework. have you read John Rawls "a theory of justice"? If you haven't, please do. He's one of the most respected ethicist of the last century. Basically what he came up with, and which can be applied to the question "is eating meat wrong", goes as follows.


This kind of argument from authority falls apart when you reflect on the fact that John Locke, Jeremy Bentham and even Aristotle were vegetarians.

The thought experiment you’ve cited essentially brings game theory into the discussion. Whilst it’s interesting, it doesn’t really tease out any of the issues. Natural selection actually requires a perpetual state of suffering - as soon as organisms live in an environment of plenty, they’ll breed until the equilibrium of misery is restored. As humans we have the ability to control a lot of our environment and we should do so responsibly.
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:05 am

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby action » Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:55 am

Elessar wrote:
action wrote:Elessar, you're using the wrong ethical framework. have you read John Rawls "a theory of justice"? If you haven't, please do. He's one of the most respected ethicist of the last century. Basically what he came up with, and which can be applied to the question "is eating meat wrong", goes as follows.


This kind of argument from authority falls apart when you reflect on the fact that John Locke, Jeremy Bentham and even Aristotle were vegetarians.

The thought experiment you’ve cited essentially brings game theory into the discussion. Whilst it’s interesting, it doesn’t really tease out any of the issues. Natural selection actually requires a perpetual state of suffering - as soon as organisms live in an environment of plenty, they’ll breed until the equilibrium of misery is restored. As humans we have the ability to control a lot of our environment and we should do so responsibly.


that's all true, but natural selection, while certainly having its benefits, is not a moral rule. it's as they call "the laws of nature". those are fine of course, but if you're looking for moral rules, it isn't so simple.

ethics does not provide the best ways to survive, it offers answers to the question "what is good, what is wrong".

one might argue, morality does not "exist", there is no "good" or "wrong", it's all made up by mankind.

but here were are where you, Elessar, ARE wondering if it is ethical to eat meat (you do, wonder, don't you?).

so that's when you got to go deep, to "ethical level". You got to somehow, find the hidden and pure state of true morality. Since we have seen that morality is really "shaped" by mankind, Rawls has made this experiment, involving "us" as the norm makers, but we are put in a pure and uncompromised state which would benefit us in making pure moral rules. that's what the "game" is all about.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Sun Feb 24, 2019 9:00 am

action wrote:
that's all true, but natural selection, while certainly having its benefits, is not a moral rule. it's as they call "the laws of nature". those are fine of course, but if you're looking for moral rules, it isn't so simple.

ethics does not provide the best ways to survive, it offers answers to the question "what is good, what is wrong".

one might argue, morality does not "exist", there is no "good" or "wrong", it's all made up by mankind.

but here were are where you, Elessar, ARE wondering if it is ethical to eat meat (you do, wonder, don't you?).

so that's when you got to go deep, to "ethical level". You got to somehow, find the hidden and pure state of true morality. Since we have seen that morality is really "shaped" by mankind, Rawls has made this experiment, involving "us" as the norm makers, but we are put in a pure and uncompromised state which would benefit us in making pure moral rules. that's what the "game" is all about.


It’s a totally contrived scenario because these space aliens presumably have consciousness and the ability to reason, but presumably as soon as they enter the body of the salmon they lose all that. There’s actually no reason why they should be concerned about the survival of their salmon body, unless they are due to be returned to the spaceship, which introduces an element that changes the situation so much that it no longer works as a metaphor.

Natural selection trumps morality. Take away our easy access to all kinds of food and we’ll start eating whatever is available, and rightly so. It’s the Maslow hierarchy of needs. Animals barely get past the bottom of the pyramid, that concerning physiological needs. Even if they had a sense of morality (they don’t, but I’m sure some will disagree with me and talk about dolphins rescuing swimmers or something), the vast majority of the time their simple physiological needs take precedence.

So the idea of creating morals that the space aliens feel would benefit all organisms is unrealistically utopian and doesn’t reflect the real world.

Also I think you’ve misunderstood what I meant by game theory. I’m not talking about an actual game.
 
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