Try Veganism

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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby icy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:23 am

Credit and respect to you, my eyes are opened even more now.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Leigh Burne » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:46 am

YAFF wrote:Where Your Meat Comes From

I have watched your video and I've seen plenty of others like it.

Enjoying meat and endorsing farming practices like that are totally different things.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:02 am

Leigh Burne wrote:
YAFF wrote:Where Your Meat Comes From

I have watched your video and I've seen plenty of others like it.

Enjoying meat and endorsing farming practices like that are totally different things.


I watched an interesting edition of Countryfile at the weekend. It focussed on rare breeds and was presented by Adam Henson - http://www.cotswoldfarmpark.co.uk -, a farmer who regularly presents the show. His father, from whom he inherited his farm, was instrumental in setting up the Rare Breeds Survival Trust - www.rbst.org.uk

Apparently, between 1900 and 1973 (when the trust was set up) 26 breeds of UK livestock became extinct. I can't speak for all 26, but they detailed three breeds of pig - the Cumberland, Dorset Gold Tip and Lancashire Curly Coat - which became extinct specifically because they were no longer farmed for food. Is that any more acceptable than breeding for food?

The situation isn't as black and white as some would have you believe. Yes, there are questionable practices within the industry, that is not in doubt, but like any industry, there are large chunks who farm responsibly and humanely.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:04 am

YAFF wrote:
Lino wrote:I won't become a vegan by being imposed or something. It's incredible how some people preach veganism as priests and we're going to hell if we don't become one....


You seem defensive, are you? I've never heard a priest threaten hell over veganism. How odd.


I hesitate to speak for Lino, but I think you misunderstand his comment. He's not saying that Priests are preaching veganism, but that some vegans preach as if they are priests and saying that we will go to hell if we eat meat.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:10 am

YAFF wrote:if you eat meat you should watch this...

Where Your Meat Comes From

phpBB [video]


I notice your video focuses only on poor farming techniques, totally ignoring good practice that goes on in thousands of farms. I live in the Shropshire countryside and, within an hour, could travel to any number of a few dozen farms where this simply doesn't happen. Seems a very skewed view of the industry.

As I've stated previously, I'm not against vegetarianism or veganism as a choice whatever the reasons you have, but if you want to argue the case to convert others, the argument has to be balanced.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby icy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:23 pm

I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:35 pm

icy wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.


But it's like putting up a video of an ISIS member beheading an innocent victim and claiming this as evidence that all Muslims are murdering terrorists - it's patently untrue. Yes, the video is shocking and shows part of the story, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I think the word used for this kind of thing is 'propaganda'
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby icy » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:45 pm

WeeMann wrote:
icy wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.


But it's like putting up a video of an ISIS member beheading an innocent victim and claiming this as evidence that all Muslims are murdering terrorists - it's patently untrue. Yes, the video is shocking and shows part of the story, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I think the word used for this kind of thing is 'propaganda'

Honestly, through the years I have learned about both sides of the issue/s. It's coming to my knowledge once again that things are not so cut and dried. As I statec , I rarely eat meat, but the flavouring can end up in unexpected food products. I can give up eggs simply, but I will miss the products that has eggs, cakes, pastries, etc. I know after researching it can be done without eggs, its something I hope to plan to attempt this weekend.
~Godspeed little one~
~Don't talk about angels
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Rags are blowing
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I'm done with running
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~Sleep in peace old friend for me you'll never die~
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:47 pm

WeeMann wrote:
icy wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.


But it's like putting up a video of an ISIS member beheading an innocent victim and claiming this as evidence that all Muslims are murdering terrorists - it's patently untrue. Yes, the video is shocking and shows part of the story, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I think the word used for this kind of thing is 'propaganda'


That's a very poor and nonequivalent analogy. The sheer size of the meat and dairy industries and the scale of the cruelty and environmental damage inflicted on the planet is not like your Isis member example at all.. (why do Leigh Burne and Innuendos "like" your post but not likemy posts that call for compassion against innocent beings! That seems like a selfish, self-serving perspective)

The premise that speciesism is wrong and veganism is the solution. All meat industry people ARE complicit in the murder of animals. Not all Muslims are terrorists. It's ironic that your post is actually anti-my thread propaganda. You have laid out a red herring, which is an argumentative fallacy. What's next? Calling me Nazi-esque?

While not every farm or factory workers kick and beat their victims they all do kill, enslave or confine them. There is no such thing as "humane murder" and much of what you see in that video are INDUSTRY STANDARD PRACTICE.

Some people need graphic reality to think twice about their life choices. The meat and dairy industry do their wrongs behind closed doors and all people see is the steak not the cow, the ham and not the pig, etc..
Last edited by YAFF on Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:52 pm

WeeMann wrote:
I notice your video focuses only on poor farming techniques, totally ignoring good practice that goes on in thousands of farms. I live in the Shropshire countryside and, within an hour, could travel to any number of a few dozen farms where this simply doesn't happen. Seems a very skewed view of the industry.

As I've stated previously, I'm not against vegetarianism or veganism as a choice whatever the reasons you have, but if you want to argue the case to convert others, the argument has to be balanced.


"Good practice" farming? Not in meat and dairy farms. Nope. You really are missing the intent of this thread. It's partly my fault for posting a provocative video. The point of the thread is that it is wrong to confine, enslave and kill innocent sentient beings when it is NOT necessary to do so. Humans do not need to eat, wear or enslave any animals to live happy and healthy. While there may be exceptions the vast majority of persons- especially those in industrialized nations abuse animals for convenience and financial gain. Pure selfishness.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Leigh Burne » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:56 pm

YAFF wrote:(shame on Leigh Burne and Innuendos for "liking" your post but not liking my posts that call for compassion against innocent beings! That selfish, self-serving perspective is the biggest problem in the world today)

I liked his post because while the example may have been extreme, I agreed with it's intent. Battery chickens may be appalling, but that's hardly the only way chickens live.

I've got no problem whatsoever with vegans. But militant vegans piss me off. Just like militant Christians, or absolutely anyone else who tries to force their own views onto other people. You have your beliefs, I have mine. I wonder how many farmed species would just go extinct if everyone gave up eating meat?

What about all the damage done to environment by pesticides used in farming crops?
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:58 pm

WeeMann wrote:. Yes, there are questionable practices within the industry, that is not in doubt, but like any industry, there are large chunks who farm responsibly and humanely.


Since when is kidnapping, enslaving, exploiting, experimenting, impregnating against one's will and unnecessarily killing "responsible" and "humane"?
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:05 pm

Leigh Burne wrote:
YAFF wrote:(shame on Leigh Burne and Innuendos for "liking" your post but not liking my posts that call for compassion against innocent beings! That selfish, self-serving perspective is the biggest problem in the world today)

I liked his post because while the example may have been extreme, I agreed with it's intent. Battery chickens may be appalling, but that's hardly the only way chickens live.

I've got no problem whatsoever with vegans. But militant vegans piss me off. Just like militant Christians, or absolutely anyone else who tries to force their own views onto other people. You have your beliefs, I have mine. I wonder how many farmed species would just go extinct if everyone gave up eating meat?

What about all the damage done to environment by pesticides used in farming crops?


Any damage done in farming crops is minuscule compared to the havoc wrought upon the environment by the meat, dairy and egg industries! Do some research. The NUMBER 1 environmental hazard is the animal industry. "Militant vegans"? Whatever. It takes many battles to finally overturn wrong beliefs that are entrenched. Without "militant" and even violent behavior there usually is no change. Anti-Slavery, Minority rights, Women;s rights, Gay rights. All these truths come about by a combination of methods and have all involved zeal/aggressive behavior.

I shouldn't have said "shame on". I have edited my post after the fact
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Leigh Burne » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:32 pm

YAFF wrote:Any damage done in farming crops is minuscule compared to the havoc wrought upon the environment by the meat, dairy and egg industries!

And what about when everyone stops eating meat, eggs and cheese altogether, becomes a vegan and suddenly needs vastly more agricultural products in their place? What about all the extra chemicals we'd need to use to produce enough crops to feed everyone because they aren't getting the other stuff? What about all the extra deforestation because farming crops take up more land than animals? What about the increased soil degradation as a consequence of growing so many more fields of crops?
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:51 pm

Leigh Burne wrote:
YAFF wrote:Any damage done in farming crops is minuscule compared to the havoc wrought upon the environment by the meat, dairy and egg industries!

And what about when everyone stops eating meat, eggs and cheese altogether, becomes a vegan and suddenly needs vastly more agricultural products in their place? What about all the extra chemicals we'd need to use to produce enough crops to feed everyone because they aren't getting the other stuff? What about all the extra deforestation because farming crops take up more land than animals? What about the increased soil degradation as a consequence of growing so many more fields of crops?


According to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the runoff from factory farms pollutes our rivers and lakes more than all other industries combined. In the U.S. alone, animals raised for food produce 130 times more excrement than the entire human population—86,000 pounds per second. A typical pig factory farm generates as much raw waste as a city of 50,000 people. Chicken, pig, and cow excrement have polluted over 35,000 miles of rivers in at least 22 states and contaminated groundwater in at least 17 states.

The majority of pesticide intake comes from animal products because the meat, dairy and egg industries douse billions of animals with chemicals to kill flies and mosquitoes that spread diseases from animal to animal. These chemicals seep through the pores, where they're permanently stored in the animals' flesh. Only a small percentage of pesticide intake comes from plant-based foods. But the majority of that residue can be washed away pretty easily. You also have the option of purchasing organic plant foods, which solves the chemical problem altogether. While you might be able to buy some chemical-free animal products (which is pretty hard to do because animal feed is rarely organic), there are still four issues that can never be overcome: slaughterhouse cruelty; the commodification and enslavement of animals; the deleterious effects of consuming animal protein, casein, cholesterol, saturated fats and trans fatty acids; and the environmental destruction and world hunger caused by animal-based agriculture. The government also allows crops set aside as animal feed to be sprayed with 2 to 20 times the amount of chemicals used on crops set aside for human consumption!

Raising animals for food consumes nearly half the water used in the United States. Since no one needs to eat an animal in order to survive (except those living in icy and desert settings), that means fifty percent of all the water in America is wasted on animal-based agriculture. It takes an estimated 800 to 2,500 gallons of water to produce a single pound of beef, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat. Maintaining a carnivorous diet for a single person requires 4,200 gallons of water per day. A vegan diet for a single person requires only 300 gallons of water per day.

Of all agricultural land in the U.S., nearly 80 percent is used to raise animals for food. More than 260 million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to create cropland to grow grain for animal feed, and about 85 percent of the seven billion tons of topsoil lost in the U.S. each year has been directly attributed to the enslavement of cows. It takes twenty times more land to sate the appetites of meat, dairy and egg-eaters than vegans: those who eat animal products require roughly 3.25 acres of land per person per year to feed themselves, whereas vegans require only 1/6 of an acre per person per year.

About 214,000 acres of rainforest, comprising an area greater than that of New York City, are destroyed every day. Some of this is for cows to graze, while some of it is to grow crops for animal feed.
More than 2.9 million acres of rainforest were destroyed in the 2004-2005 crop season in order to grow crops that feed chickens and other animals in factory farms.

For every pound of hamburger produced in rainforest countries, approximately 220 square feet of rainforest are cleared to grow the required feed. Through this clearing approximately 2,600 pounds of living matter will in the best of circumstances be displaced, or destroyed altogether. This living matter includes roughly 20 to 30 different plant species, over 100 insect species, and dozens of birds, mammals and reptiles. What is more, along with the biomass found in coral reefs, rainforest vegetation is said to be one of the most promising sources of heretofore-undiscovered chemical compounds for treating many diseases that were once thought to be intractable. These resources are simply laid to waste when rainforest is cleared. Even worse, unlike coniferous forest land, tropical rainforest can never be replaced once it has been cleared.

The meat, egg, and dairy industries are heavy consumers of fossil-fuel resources. Raising animals for food requires more than one-third of all the raw materials and fossil fuels used in the United States. The best flesh-food enterprise returns a paltry 34.5 percent of the invested fossil-fuel energy as food energy, measured in terms of caloric expenditure. In contrast, the poorest crop enterprise returns a whopping 328 percent. In other words, the least-efficient plant-based food is nearly ten times as energy-efficient as the most-efficient flesh food!

Whether you're a hardcore liberal who believes that humans are responsible for global warming, or a staunch conservative who believes that the warming of the earth is a natural cycle, I think we can all agree that intentionally emitting nitrous oxide, methane and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere can be classified as pollution. And pollution has the potential to sicken the earth and its inhabitants. Liberals and conservatives alike must understand that the feces of all animals in the meat, dairy and egg industries emit nitrous oxide and methane, two highly noxious pollutants. Plus, when it comes to carbon dioxide, few people recognize the devastating impact that destroying rainforest to grow crops for animal feed can have on the environment. For example, it's becoming increasingly well-known that burning one gallon of gasoline in an internal-combustion engine releases about 19 pounds of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. But clearing and burning enough rainforest to produce just one hamburger releases 165 pounds of carbon dioxide. Veganism, as always, is the best, most efficient way to help the environment. After all, there is no such thing as a meat, cheese, milk, egg-eating environmentalist.
Last edited by YAFF on Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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