Try Veganism

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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:54 pm

Leigh Burne wrote:
YAFF wrote:Any damage done in farming crops is minuscule compared to the havoc wrought upon the environment by the meat, dairy and egg industries!

And what about when everyone stops eating meat, eggs and cheese altogether, becomes a vegan and suddenly needs vastly more agricultural products in their place? What about all the extra chemicals we'd need to use to produce enough crops to feed everyone because they aren't getting the other stuff? What about all the extra deforestation because farming crops take up more land than animals? What about the increased soil degradation as a consequence of growing so many more fields of crops?


Also I bet you didn't know that meat eating causes world hunger?

Societies that exploit animals for food are the main cause of world hunger because they feed a disproportionate percentage of the world's crops to 60 billion land animals annually killed by the meat, dairy and egg industries worldwide and tens of billions of marine animals —instead of 7.5 billion people on the planet! Do the math. Every 2-3 seconds some human (most likely a child) starves to death, while pigs and cows continually get fat. Even the Council for Agriculture, Science and Technology, a group comprised of people involved in animal agriculture, acknowledges that 10 billion people could be fed with the available crop land in America if everyone became vegan. One acre of land can yield 30,000 pounds of carrots, 40,000 pounds of potatoes or 50,000 pounds of tomatoes. However, one acre of land can yield only 250 pounds of meat. Why? Depending on the animal in question, it takes from three to twenty pounds of vegetable protein to create one pound of animal protein. Thus it has been said in many places that animal agriculture works like "a protein factory in reverse." However, not only does this process squander protein resources; it obliterates carbohydrates and fiber, antioxidants, phytochemicals, and many other nutrients altogether.

and as mentioned in the other email...

It's no accident that many of the same factors that make animal-based agriculture an environmental disaster also make it disastrous when it comes to feeding the world's human populations. Sustaining a meat, dairy and egg-eating culture requires 20 times more land, 14 times more water, and from 10 to 20 times more consumption of fossil fuels and other energy sources, than would be required to sustain a purely vegan culture of the same size. (It's also worth noting that the American people—the most wasteful culture on the planet—comprise less than five percent of the world's population, yet they consume 20 percent of the world's animals raised for food.) Animal agriculture is not only evil to the animals that it imprisons, enslaves, tortures, and kills; it is monumentally evil when we consider the harm it wreaks on the natural environment and the health of individual persons, its devastating impact on health-care systems all over the world, and finally, its exacerbating effects on world famine and hunger. GO VEGAN! It's simply the right thing to do IN EVERY WAY.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:58 pm

YAFF wrote:
WeeMann wrote:
icy wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.


But it's like putting up a video of an ISIS member beheading an innocent victim and claiming this as evidence that all Muslims are murdering terrorists - it's patently untrue. Yes, the video is shocking and shows part of the story, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I think the word used for this kind of thing is 'propaganda'


That's a very poor and nonequivalent analogy. The sheer size of the meat and dairy industries and the scale of the cruelty and environmental damage inflicted on the planet is not like your Isis member example at all.. (why do Leigh Burne and Innuendos "like" your post but not likemy posts that call for compassion against innocent beings! That seems like a selfish, self-serving perspective)

The premise that speciesism is wrong and veganism is the solution. All meat industry people ARE complicit in the murder of animals. Not all Muslims are terrorists. It's ironic that your post is actually anti-my thread propaganda. You have laid out a red herring, which is an argumentative fallacy. What's next? Calling me Nazi-esque?


No red herring, no calling you a nazi. What I am saying is that not all farming of animals is as you depict it, exactly as not all Muslims are terrorists. The analogy is solid.

YAFF wrote:While not every farm or factory workers kick and beat their victims they all do kill, enslave or confine them. There is no such thing as "humane murder" and much of what you see in that video are INDUSTRY STANDARD PRACTICE.


If I get time tomorrow I'll pop out and get some photos of some local farms - to say the animals are confined is just laughable. As for 'enslaving', what do you mean? I take it you're against the use of horses as a form of transport, or guide dogs for the blind?

I know it's not quite the same in the US, but here in the UK cattle would be almost completely extinct if it weren't for farming. I was under the impression that there are no wild cattle in the UK, but I have found evidence of one herd: http://www.chillinghamwildcattle.com/ - as I mentioned in a previous post, 3 breeds of pig became extinct in the UK during the 20th century as a direct result of them no longer being farmed for food. I notice you didn't answer my question of whether this was acceptable?
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby action » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:04 pm

WeeMann wrote:
icy wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.


But it's like putting up a video of an ISIS member beheading an innocent victim and claiming this as evidence that all Muslims are murdering terrorists - it's patently untrue. Yes, the video is shocking and shows part of the story, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I think the word used for this kind of thing is 'propaganda'


where did Yaff say all farmers act like in that video?

even i could see she only showed the video to claim it happens in "some" farms. surely you only have to look at the farmer next door to see it doesnt happen everywhere, and i'm sure Yaff knows that too. so to think Yaff claims that all farmers are like that, is a bit stretching dont you think? 8-)
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:22 pm

action wrote:
WeeMann wrote:
icy wrote:I hate to say it, and I'm not speaking for yaff, sometimes shock value is needed. I needed a push in trying to change, and already I'm trying to change what I personally eat.


But it's like putting up a video of an ISIS member beheading an innocent victim and claiming this as evidence that all Muslims are murdering terrorists - it's patently untrue. Yes, the video is shocking and shows part of the story, but it doesn't tell the whole story. I think the word used for this kind of thing is 'propaganda'


where did Yaff say all farmers act like in that video?

even i could see she only showed the video to claim it happens in "some" farms. surely you only have to look at the farmer next door to see it doesnt happen everywhere, and i'm sure Yaff knows that too. so to think Yaff claims that all farmers are like that, is a bit stretching dont you think? 8-)


Go back and read my full post, get the context.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:45 pm

WeeMann wrote:
Go back and read my full post, get the context.


No sir action is correct. Nowhere did I say all farms are exactly the same. I posted a video that nowhere claims all farms. Farming isn't even the MAIN issue.

And to answer your other question- yes forcing horses into service is most definitely slavery. Impregnating cows to steal their milk from their calves is wrong even if the cows had free range and nightly back massages. Same goes for circuses. Slavery. It's common sense. Farms with less cruelty are still cruel. Notice the "or" below.

While not every farm or factory workers kick and beat their victims they all do kill, enslave or confine them. There is no such thing as "humane murder" and much of what you see in that video are Standard Industry Practice- no anesthesia!). All meat industry people ARE complicit in the murder of animals. Not all Muslims are terrorists.

There's no need for you to post uncaged animals or anything like that because that is not my argument. Factory farming of animals is unethical. So is using animals for experiments, for transportation, for show, etc..

The premise that speciesism is wrong and veganism is the solution.
Last edited by YAFF on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:51 pm

WeeMann wrote:I know it's not quite the same in the US, but here in the UK cattle would be almost completely extinct if it weren't for farming. - as I mentioned in a previous post, 3 breeds of pig became extinct in the UK during the 20th century as a direct result of them no longer being farmed for food. I notice you didn't answer my question of whether this was acceptable?


Huh? Are you actually arguing in favor animal abuse because it keeps breeds alive? What are we.... God? That's demented man. Let nature runs it's course. 99% of all species that have every existed have gone extinct. To argue in favor of animal slavery, confinement and murder because it keeps the species going is, frankly, a very scary thought.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:10 pm

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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Innuendoes » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:42 pm

Oh oh, LRAD time :P

Yea, I am bad. Maybe I should be put down because I am hypoglycemic and my body needs animal protein. :shock:
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:47 pm

Innuendoes wrote:Oh oh, LRAD time :P

Yea, I am bad. Maybe I should be put down because I am hypoglycemic and my body needs animal protein. :shock:


LRAD? What is that? No your body does NOT need animal protein. Your body needs protein. :)
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Innuendoes » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:52 pm

YAFF wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:Oh oh, LRAD time :P

Yea, I am bad. Maybe I should be put down because I am hypoglycemic and my body needs animal protein. :shock:


LRAD? What is that? No your body does NOT need animal protein. Your body needs protein. :)

LRADs are Long Distance Acoustic Devise aka they make people run away and hold their ears. Police use them to disperse crowds.

So it would be better for me to eat vegan and spend the day in the bathroom, all day, and doubled up in horrible pain. Yea, better to just be put down.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:56 pm

Innuendoes wrote:
YAFF wrote:
Innuendoes wrote:Oh oh, LRAD time :P

Yea, I am bad. Maybe I should be put down because I am hypoglycemic and my body needs animal protein. :shock:


LRAD? What is that? No your body does NOT need animal protein. Your body needs protein. :)

LRADs are Long Distance Acoustic Devise aka they make people run away and hold their ears. Police use them to disperse crowds.

So it would be better for me to eat vegan and spend the day in the bathroom, all day, and doubled up in horrible pain. Yea, better to just be put down.


I didn't say that Inny but to say you NEED ANIMAL protein specifically just isn't true, physiologically for any human. Your body needs protein and perhaps the only way YOU can get is an animal source. See the distinction? I'd love to examine this further if you were interested.
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Innuendoes » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:06 pm

YAFF wrote:I didn't say that Inny but to say you NEED ANIMAL protein specifically just isn't true, physiologically for any human. Your body needs protein and perhaps the only way YOU can get is an animal source. See the distinction? I'd love to examine this further if you were interested.

I've told you time and time again, I feel sick if I don't have it once per day - about 2 ounces. I get so drowsy I can't stay awake.

Try if you'd like. I refuse to eat food that makes me empty my guts out and bloats my stomach so that I have to keep my pants unzipped at all times AND makes me double up in pain, 24/7. I do eat vegetables and fruit but even once a day often will cause that reaction for a couple of days, depending on what it was that I ate.
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:13 pm

Innuendoes wrote:
YAFF wrote:I didn't say that Inny but to say you NEED ANIMAL protein specifically just isn't true, physiologically for any human. Your body needs protein and perhaps the only way YOU can get is an animal source. See the distinction? I'd love to examine this further if you were interested.

I've told you time and time again, I feel sick if I don't have it once per day - about 2 ounces. I get so drowsy I can't stay awake.

Try if you'd like. I refuse to eat food that makes me empty my guts out and bloats my stomach so that I have to keep my pants unzipped at all times AND makes me double up in pain, 24/7. I do eat vegetables and fruit but even once a day often will cause that reaction for a couple of days, depending on what it was that I ate.


Let me be clear about something, ok. If a person can only survive only by eating animal products than that is an obvious exception to the premise "it is unethical to consume, wear or enslave animals or products made from animals when it is not necessary for humans to survive and be healthy".
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:50 pm

Annoying points from both sides, so very difficult to be sympathetic to either side of this argument!

Two questions though:

To the anti-meat: Do you check to see how things such as alcoholic drinks and medicinal drugs are manufactured?

To the pro-meat: If you cannot survive without meat, do you think your life is more important than thousands of animals?
 
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Re: Try Veganism In 2015?

Postby YAFF » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:04 am

Elessar wrote:Annoying points from both sides, so very difficult to be sympathetic to either side of this argument!

Two questions though:

To the anti-meat: Do you check to see how things such as alcoholic drinks and medicinal drugs are manufactured?


What exactly is annoying about veganism and all the reasons given? Inconvenient truth perhaps?

Do you find a flaw in this premise: "it is unethical to consume, wear or enslave animals or products made from animals when it is not necessary for humans to survive and be healthy"?

To answer your question I investigate everything I may consume, wear or take part in.
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