Try Veganism

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:41 pm

I think we’re coming at the discussion with different preconceptions, and therefore reaching different conclusions, so there’s little point arguing about the conclusions because we’re comparing apples with oranges.

We seem to differ in that you think all sentient beings should be treated equally (correct me if I’m wrong), whereas I think the capacity to reason elevates humans above other animals. That’s probably just a difference of opinion that we’re unlikely to find common ground on. My belief is that animals may well feel basic emotions and may have what we perceive as personalities (projecting human values onto animals), but they live almost exclusively in the present with no ability to mentally time-travel (this is backed by evidence), and therefore an animal won’t feel at all short-changed by not living to old age. I saw your comment about differences in animal lifespan in captivity vs the wild but remember there’s a difference between lifespan and life expectancy. Human life span has been around 120 for hundreds of years, but life expectancy has gradually increased. Very very few wild animals die of ‘old age’.

I also don’t believe animals have much of a concept of death. Yes, there are videos of chimps carrying their dead young for weeks, or of elephants standing near elephant skeletons, but again we assign human explanations and to these animal behaviours. Evidence suggests that elephants will be curious of any ivory material, regardless of whether or not it looks like an elephant tusk, and one possible explanation is that the presence of elephant material indicates a good place to be. To say it indicates ‘mourning’ is a huge leap, and one not backed up by neuroscience.

But as I say, I think the point at which we differ is earlier than our ultimate conclusions. If I didn’t believe that humans’ ability to reason was superior to the sentience of a cow or a rabbit or a gnat, I probably would agree that there’s never any justification whatsoever for consuming animal products. What this means is that our difference of opinion is on the science rather than the ethics.

I agree of course that if it’s unnecessary to eat meat, it’s difficult to justify it. However I would say that if the main problems (unsustainability and cruelty) can be eliminated, it could be acceptable. And the cruelty problem relies on the above few paragraphs.
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:34 am

 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Sole Survivor » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:41 am

Elessar wrote:
I agree of course that if it’s unnecessary to eat meat, it’s difficult to justify it. However I would say that if the main problems (unsustainability and cruelty) can be eliminated, it could be acceptable. And the cruelty problem relies on the above few paragraphs.

I just cannot grasp the concept of how you can treat an animal without cruelty, and then kill it for food?! It doesn't matter how painless you make the process, you are still taking it's life- and I don't care whether or not the animal concerned has the capacity to be self-aware and realise that it's alive, because to me, depriving it of that life is the cruelest thing you can do! Every sentient animal has the innate desire to preserve it's own life, which is why they run away from predators, fire, etc, so surely lacking the self-awareness that we humans have of 'wow, hey, I'm alive!' is a moot point- they don't want to die!
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:28 pm

Sole Survivor wrote:
Elessar wrote:
I agree of course that if it’s unnecessary to eat meat, it’s difficult to justify it. However I would say that if the main problems (unsustainability and cruelty) can be eliminated, it could be acceptable. And the cruelty problem relies on the above few paragraphs.

I just cannot grasp the concept of how you can treat an animal without cruelty, and then kill it for food?! It doesn't matter how painless you make the process, you are still taking it's life- and I don't care whether or not the animal concerned has the capacity to be self-aware and realise that it's alive, because to me, depriving it of that life is the cruelest thing you can do! Every sentient animal has the innate desire to preserve it's own life, which is why they run away from predators, fire, etc, so surely lacking the self-awareness that we humans have of 'wow, hey, I'm alive!' is a moot point- they don't want to die!


I don’t think they have a concept of death, so it’s not that they don’t want to die, but rather they don’t want to be attacked by a predator or burnt by a fire. And if they can be killed in a way that isn’t painful or even frightening for them, I don’t see where the cruelty is. Yes, the process may be taking away their life, but it’s possible with ethical farming that they could have a far healthier and more comfortable life than if they’d been born in the wild.

I don’t think depriving an animal of a potential future is cruel in the same way that it would be if you did the same to a human. Animals live an existence that doesn’t particularly rely on a finite lifespan with reasonably predictable parameters. As horrible as death seems to humans, it’s actually essential to give meaning to our lives - living forever would be pretty much unbearable. In contrast, a dog or a bird probably could fairly happily live forever, always living in the moment and never worrying about its future or past. A cow only living to 1 instead of to 15 really is of no consequence to it.

But as I say, it’s easy nowadays to err on the side of caution regarding these ethical issues, and to avoid meat anyway - plus the environmental and heath benefits still exist even if the ethical issues can be queried.
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby WeeMann » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:56 pm

Elessar wrote:Yes, the process may be taking away their life, but it’s possible with ethical farming that they could have a far healthier and more comfortable life than if they’d been born in the wild.


Here's a thought to throw in with your point. There is, I believe, only one herd of wild cattle in the UK. All other British cattle are farmed. Should the entire country decide to turn vegan I can't see the majority of these animals surviving.

Regardless of the end point, cattle would be all but extinct in our country if they weren't farmed. Could it be seen as ethical to allow a number of breeds to become extinct so that we can feel better about ourselves?
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby action » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:10 pm

not eating meat is a crime against the laws of nature

one shouldn't mess with how nature works, it won't end well
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:46 pm

WeeMann wrote:
Elessar wrote:Yes, the process may be taking away their life, but it’s possible with ethical farming that they could have a far healthier and more comfortable life than if they’d been born in the wild.


Here's a thought to throw in with your point. There is, I believe, only one herd of wild cattle in the UK. All other British cattle are farmed. Should the entire country decide to turn vegan I can't see the majority of these animals surviving.

Regardless of the end point, cattle would be all but extinct in our country if they weren't farmed. Could it be seen as ethical to allow a number of breeds to become extinct so that we can feel better about ourselves?


I don’t think that argument counts for much, to be honest.

The only reason why there aren’t many wild cattle is because all the land in the country is owned and managed by someone, and if there’s livestock it’s probably farmland.

Humans and their mammalian livestock now account for 96% of the world’s mammalian biomass. That wasn’t the case 100 years ago: http://www.ecowatch.com/biomass-humans- ... 13930.html
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Sole Survivor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:54 am

WeeMann wrote:
Elessar wrote:Yes, the process may be taking away their life, but it’s possible with ethical farming that they could have a far healthier and more comfortable life than if they’d been born in the wild.


Here's a thought to throw in with your point. There is, I believe, only one herd of wild cattle in the UK. All other British cattle are farmed. Should the entire country decide to turn vegan I can't see the majority of these animals surviving.

Regardless of the end point, cattle would be all but extinct in our country if they weren't farmed. Could it be seen as ethical to allow a number of breeds to become extinct so that we can feel better about ourselves?

I very much doubt that domestic farm livestock would become extinct if we changed our dietary habits, as there are several wild species that still exist- and besides, the invention of the internal combustion engine and the advent of the motor car has done little in making the horse extinct. Further, allowing the man-made species to become extinct would really be a kindness of sorts, as they would no longer be bred to suffer at the hands of Man.

action wrote:not eating meat is a crime against the laws of nature

one shouldn't mess with how nature works, it won't end well

You would have a point if we had evolved as obligate carnivores, but all the fossil evidence points to our ancestors being herbivorous by nature. We only began consuming meat when the ice ages made scavenging for vegetation difficult. Farming then made supplying vegetables more available, and domestic livestock meant there was no need to hunt anymore. Our digestive tract and dentition is better suited to an herbivorous diet than it is to an omnivorous one, and in certain parts of Asia, a wholefoods, plant-based diet has been the way of life for such a long time, that the introduction of meat into the diet has caused cases of cancer and heart disease to skyrocket, where it was largely unheard of previously. So much so, that these diseases are known among the locals as 'the westerners' disease'. Dr T. Colin Campbell reached these conclusions when he was sent to China and Japan after WW2 to study their diet with a view to helping them reconstruct and adopt a healthier lifestyle after the war- and discovered that their diet was in fact way healthier than ours! If anything, eating meat is the true crime against the laws of nature that allowed us to evolve.

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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:26 am

Cancer and heart disease are illnesses of advancing age. It’s as simple as that. Yes, meat might be partly responsible for them, but a healthy diet which may well include meat is part of the reason why most of us live long enough to get heart disease and cancer instead of dying of plague. It’s a bit like saying that nicotine patches cause dementia.

https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Sole Survivor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:09 am

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"Heart disease is a toothless paper tiger that need never exist and, if it does exist, need never progress."- Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn.

Added to this, when I had my cardiac event last year, it was confirmed to be pericarditis brought on by pneumonia. I have had a heart attack, but many years previously before I was diagnosed- the scarring is there on my heart muscle. My cardiologist told me that my diet and lifestyle change was what saved my life- if I hadn't given up animal products, then this cardiac event would have killed me.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:56 pm

Sure, but increasingly rates of cancer and heart disease aren’t because of some recent increase in meat consumption (with the possible exception of bowel cancer caused by red meat). They’re because people are living longer. Likewise dementia, which I’m sure was almost unheard of hundreds of years ago. It’s mistaking correlation for causation to say that industrialised farming has caused increased rates of cancer. You might as well say that toilets and clean drinking water have increased the number of broken hips (you don’t die of cholera as a child AND then you get to slip in your bathroom and break your hip when you’re old).
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby action » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 pm

Elessar wrote:Sure, but increasingly rates of cancer and heart disease aren’t because of some recent increase in meat consumption (with the possible exception of bowel cancer caused by red meat). They’re because people are living longer. Likewise dementia, which I’m sure was almost unheard of hundreds of years ago. It’s mistaking correlation for causation to say that industrialised farming has caused increased rates of cancer. You might as well say that toilets and clean drinking water have increased the number of broken hips (you don’t die of cholera as a child AND then you get to slip in your bathroom and break your hip when you’re old).


that doesn't explain the many younger people that die of that terrible disease, nor does it explain why the disease occurs more in western countries.
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:10 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:Sure, but increasingly rates of cancer and heart disease aren’t because of some recent increase in meat consumption (with the possible exception of bowel cancer caused by red meat). They’re because people are living longer. Likewise dementia, which I’m sure was almost unheard of hundreds of years ago. It’s mistaking correlation for causation to say that industrialised farming has caused increased rates of cancer. You might as well say that toilets and clean drinking water have increased the number of broken hips (you don’t die of cholera as a child AND then you get to slip in your bathroom and break your hip when you’re old).


that doesn't explain the many younger people that die of that terrible disease, nor does it explain why the disease occurs more in western countries.


1) Not that many young people get either disease. The number isn’t zero and it’s terribly sad when it happens, but it’s also very rare. It’s also not a new thing. Kids were dying of leukaemia hundreds of years ago too.

2) It’s because people live longer in western countries. Yes, a western diet is a risk factor for bowel cancer, but then oesophageal cancer is more common in Japan.
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby Elessar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:15 pm

Cancer has been around for at least 3000 years, so comfortably pre-dates industrialised farming:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927383/
 
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Re: Try Veganism

Postby YAFF » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:44 am

action wrote:not eating meat is a crime against the laws of nature

one shouldn't mess with how nature works, it won't end well


Sometimes I literally cannot tell if you are trolling or are just this fucking stupid.
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