What comes after this life ?

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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:19 am

action wrote:
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I don’t understand most of that, but I suspect the solution is that the energy required to create negative mass would be such that it isn’t really perpetual motion, but rather motion driven by energy via a negative mass generator.

It’s basically a reimagining of Maxwell’s demon.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:27 am

Elessar wrote:Okay, so actually when you brought up the simulation theory in response to my post about the phenomenal vs noumenal world, you actually just wanted to go off on an irrelevant tangent?

That’s fine, it would just have helped a bit if you’d signposted it more clearly, because I’ve spent this whole time trying to work out where your point about the afterlife is.


no, don't give up yet. you were on the right track.

the simulation theory is a perfect starting point to contemplate the existence of an afterlife.

like you said, there are two options:
1. simulation made by god
2. simulation made by kid in basement

but aren't those two one in the same, when you think about it?

I already went over this, but the energy and computing power required to produce this simulation, must necessarily mean a certain purpose (afterlife). It's unthinkable, that the biggest effort made, in the entire history of the universe, has no purpose.
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:42 am

a bmw does not have a soul; it's a thing. a bmw can not make moral decisions, it isn't granted the ability to do so.

we do, we can make moral decisions. this is a quality that, at least, "can" hypothetically be judged by the creator of the simulation. the creator has that option, but wether he does or not is up to debate.

but the creator reviewing his simulation, will most definately see us make various moral decisions. he could care about that, or he couldn't. but the option is there.

do animals have the ability to make moral choices? the lowest levels of animals don't. it's hard to make a distinction here. I believe that some animals have (a use for) a soul, when they are able to make moral decisions. so when timmy asks his mom " mommy, will max be in heaven now", then the answer is probably yes. dogs can act morally. there are known cases of dogs helping humans. even complete strangers. Therefore, the creator of the simulation can appreciate the moral behaviour of dogs too, and thus it's possible they have a soul.

A bmw like I said, does not have a soul. it can not make moral decisions. chances are, I wont be driving my 318i BMW in heaven.

interesting parenthesis: when computer AI is able to make choices by its own, can this be appreciated by the simulation creator too? could an advanced computer AI go to heaven too? I don't know.
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:20 pm

the simulation (the universe) is a vehicle to select moral souls, for use in the "afterlife".

the best specimen are selected, to populate the afterlife.

this is not scientifically proven, of course, but the following observations back this up:
- the bible (creation in "7" days = > the creation of the simulation); (the teachings of christ and the warning of the rapture => selection for the afterlife). I find the bible a fascinating and mysterious book. it's very existence is highly unlikely, seeing the timespan it was written in, and the mysterious internal coherence it provides.
- other religions with the same message
- computer code found in reality which hints at creation
- near death experiences which are uniform, where people claim to have met relatives in an ideal world
- ghost sightings and paranatural activity which is further indication of souls existing
- the universe itself which consists mostly of dark matter, or matter we can't see, much like souls and spirits
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:42 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:Okay, so actually when you brought up the simulation theory in response to my post about the phenomenal vs noumenal world, you actually just wanted to go off on an irrelevant tangent?

That’s fine, it would just have helped a bit if you’d signposted it more clearly, because I’ve spent this whole time trying to work out where your point about the afterlife is.


no, don't give up yet. you were on the right track.

the simulation theory is a perfect starting point to contemplate the existence of an afterlife.

like you said, there are two options:
1. simulation made by god
2. simulation made by kid in basement

but aren't those two one in the same, when you think about it?

I already went over this, but the energy and computing power required to produce this simulation, must necessarily mean a certain purpose (afterlife). It's unthinkable, that the biggest effort made, in the entire history of the universe, has no purpose.


Why do you think it would require a lot of computing power? The simulation might only expand as you explore it. Africa might not exist when you’re not experiencing it. That massively reduces the amount of energy required.

I get your point - if we’re a simulation in a high school kid’s basement, he’s the god of our universe. But if when he gets bored of us he turns us off and plays GTA instead, there’s certainly no afterlife for us. Whereas if the universe was made by a god, maybe there is, for some reason. I’m still not sure what god is getting out of it all but I’m sure the theologians have some ideas.

My point is that the simulation theory doesn’t open up or close off any possibilities regarding an afterlife. It just adds a simulation to the equation. What lies above it all is just as much of a mystery as it was before the notion of a simulation. Or it’s just turtles all the way down.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:43 pm

action wrote:a bmw does not have a soul; it's a thing. a bmw can not make moral decisions, it isn't granted the ability to do so.


Wait until driverless cars have to choose between hitting 5 kids and 1 kid.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:45 pm

action wrote:the simulation (the universe) is a vehicle to select moral souls, for use in the "afterlife".

the best specimen are selected, to populate the afterlife.

this is not scientifically proven, of course, but the following observations back this up:
- the bible (creation in "7" days = > the creation of the simulation); (the teachings of christ and the warning of the rapture => selection for the afterlife). I find the bible a fascinating and mysterious book. it's very existence is highly unlikely, seeing the timespan it was written in, and the mysterious internal coherence it provides.
- other religions with the same message
- computer code found in reality which hints at creation
- near death experiences which are uniform, where people claim to have met relatives in an ideal world
- ghost sightings and paranatural activity which is further indication of souls existing
- the universe itself which consists mostly of dark matter, or matter we can't see, much like souls and spirits


You’ve gone from interesting philosophy to pseudoscientific paranormal nonsense. Come on, you’re better than this. Either than or you’re just trolling.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:13 pm

Elessar wrote:
action wrote:the simulation (the universe) is a vehicle to select moral souls, for use in the "afterlife".

the best specimen are selected, to populate the afterlife.

this is not scientifically proven, of course, but the following observations back this up:
- the bible (creation in "7" days = > the creation of the simulation); (the teachings of christ and the warning of the rapture => selection for the afterlife). I find the bible a fascinating and mysterious book. it's very existence is highly unlikely, seeing the timespan it was written in, and the mysterious internal coherence it provides.
- other religions with the same message
- computer code found in reality which hints at creation
- near death experiences which are uniform, where people claim to have met relatives in an ideal world
- ghost sightings and paranatural activity which is further indication of souls existing
- the universe itself which consists mostly of dark matter, or matter we can't see, much like souls and spirits


You’ve gone from interesting philosophy to pseudoscientific paranormal nonsense. Come on, you’re better than this. Either than or you’re just trolling.


I knew you would say this, I admit having a bit of a laugh myself when I saw what I had written, but I'm just a clueless person (like everyone), using whatever bits and pieces of "evidence" there is, to paint a possible picture of the meaning of life.

all of those points are observations. the bible exist. there are countless of videos and articles highlighting the unusual coherence between textx, written centuries from each other. at the very least, it needs attention. If ever the creator of the simulation gave us clues about his intentions, it's to be found in the bible and the bible alone (or the quran, in a strange turn of events). there is no other body of work to be found on the entire planet, pretending to give answers on this same scale as the bible does. it needs to be taken into the equasion.

as for the rest, while things such as ghost sightings sure provide a great story on halloween nights, they are consistent and too frequent to ignore. they too, need to be considered with a healthy dose of scepticism and constant challenge.

bottom line is: everything needs to be taken into acount and challenged, and nothing should be discarded from the start.
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:02 pm

Ghost stories HAVE been examined time and time again. I’ve actually lost interest in debunking that sort of thing; it’s a waste of time that could be spent pondering genuine mysteries. Likewise, discussions about God are far more interesting when they deal with the metaphysical rather than the boring old rubbish in the Bible which is very easily discredited. Your points about the Bible would be interesting if someone had compiled the entire book from multiple unrelated sources, but that’s not what happened. The people who wrote the New Testament has access to the Old Testament. The fact that they agree isn’t surprising. In fact, they don’t even agree. The four Gospels disagree on major plot points. Genesis alone presents two creation stories, which are mutually incompatible! The fact that most Christians aren’t even aware of this inconsistency shows just blindly loyal so many are.

My stance, as has been well documented on QOL, is one of agnosticism. I’m totally atheist when it comes to the Abrahamic God though. Those myths are so easily dispelled it’s stopped being interesting to do so. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. It’s too easy and it doesn’t bring those who haven’t died of intellectual atrophy any closer to the truth.

Jesus, on the other hand, is an interesting character. He’s one of several great minds from a similar era, alongside the Athenians, Buddha, Confucius and others. What a shame that his genuinely good wisdom became dressed up in religious dogma for entirely political reasons, hundreds of years after he lived.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:42 pm

best way going around this, is a "bottom-up" way of thinking. the universe is too complex to comprehend in it's entirety, out of our own.

today's observation I want to investigate, goes as follow.

observation: there is an unimaginable amount of suffering, evil and sorrow in this world. this can mean a couple of things. I'm going to review these departing from a couple of scenarios.

scenario 1. the simulation was created by the kid in the basement.

he included suffering in this world. this may have been, for entertainment purposes. It would also explain why people like Trump and Hitler got elected. It brings some excitement in the simulation. Usually, when things get stale, something exciting happens like WWI and II. or the 9/11 attacks. those came out of nothing.

it would be a more entertaining simulation, if such events would appear unexpectedly and at random, from the eyes of the creator. then, he would be as surprised as we are. Or it could be that, on top of random events, the creator can interfere himself and actively make someone like Trump get elected.

in this scenario, there would be no reason for an afterlife. the purpose of the simulation is entertainment. In short; we're screwed then.

scenario 2. the simulation was created by a benevolent entitity, most people call "God"

in this scenario, suffering has a dual purpose:

2.a: to test the simulants. See how they would react at disasters and suffering. Would they grieve and help victims, or wouldn't they? Would they lose their "faith" in God, or wouldn't they. All of this would ensure that the best, the most moral souls, are elected for the afterlife.

2.b. there would be no purpose of an utopian afterlife, if everything on earth was so great and perfect. IN the hypothesis that there is an ideal afterlife, God has spent a lot of energy creating such a place and making sure that the best souls get elected. A perfect "earth" would be pointless, and it would also be detrimental to purpose 2.a. This is why I believe that we humans should not go out of our way to make this world a better place. God seems to think so too. Think of all the people that wanted to make this world a better place, that were murdered! In a way, if this world was perfect, how would God be able to pick the best souls for his afterlife-realm?

2.c concerning the early deaths of good people like john lennon, freddie, martin luther king.... another reason for their early deaths, could be that god was certain about their morality, and he hand picked them to populate his utopia as soon as possible.

scenario 3. the simulation was created by a malevolent entitity, called God by most people

in this scenario, not the good souls would be picked, but the bad ones. this would explain why "nice guys finish last" and why there is so much suffering here already.

I pertinently refuse to believe we live in such a universe. If that was the case, then there would be no place for good deeds and genuine love. The mere fact that the good exists, must have a source of it's own. And unlike in scenario 2, I don't believe that the good is a counterweight for the bad, in order for the malevolent god to make sure he picks the most evil souls.
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:55 pm

As usual, it all returns to Descartes.

Je pense donc je suis

Afterlife, no afterlife, simulation, no simulation: We’re experiencing this life so let’s get on with it.

What’s the point? Well, afterlife or no afterlife, the pursuit of happiness seems a good starting point. And both ancient and modern wisdom seems to suggest that true happiness comes from living a virtuous life, and not relying on externals.

That seems like something that a benevolent god would be impressed with as well, without petty demands for worship and loyalty.

So I suppose that’s an expansion of Pascal’s wager but with belief written out of the equation. Live a life that would please god, but not because you believe in him, but rather because it will also make you happy.
Last edited by Elessar on Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:08 pm

Elessar wrote:As usual, it all returns to Descartes.

Je pense donc je suis

Afterlife, no afterlife, simulation, no simulation: We’re experiencing this life so let’s get on with it.

What’s the point? Well, afterlife or no afterlife, the pursuit of happiness seems a good starting point. And both ancient and modern wisdom seems to suggest that true happiness comes from living a virtuous life, and not relying on externals.

That seems like something that a benevolent god would be impressed with as well, without petty demands for worship and loyalty.

So I suppose that’s an expansion of Pascal’s wager but with belief written out of the equation. Love a life that would please god, but not because you believe in him, but rather because it will also make you happy.


agreed. that's a good appendance to what I've just written.
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:58 am

sometimes I wonder, what has become of the soul of people like "Hitler" and his crew, responsible for 6.000.000 deaths. I think there's three possibilities.

if Hitler was a plan of God to test the limits of our morality, to this day, then I don't think Hitler had a soul at all. he was then just a simulant himself, not quite human but some kind of AI bot with predestined future and end. in this case, God had it all planned along so it wouldn't make sense then, to "punish" Hitler in the afterlife.

If Hitler was not a plan of God, and all he did was of his own choice, then I'm conflicted as why "God" didn't interfere earlier to stop it. did God say "wow, this guy is great. It'll test people to their limits, and if people still act good in the face of these cruelties, they will certainly be fit for the afterlife". But what happened to the soul of Hitler, who god thought, was such a great vehicle in selecting moral souls? wouldn't make much sense then, to punish him either.

or it could be that god does not HAVE the ability to interfere. that his powers are limited. Hitler will be severly punished in the afterlife in this case, since all of hitler's actions are his own and God did massively dissapprove. but that still leaves the question; if god can produce a universe, why don't he have the power to interfere?

Those are the three possibilities I could come up with. I have a hard time picking the one that makes the most sense though...
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby Elessar » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:19 am

Hitler was a terrible, awful man, but I think history (written by the victors) has fetishised him as the embodiment of pure evil, which is a simplistic view to take. He was the result of the complex geopolitical environment of the time, as well as his own personal environment. And Churchill, votes all time greatest Briton, shared a lot of Hitler’s views. He just happened to end up on the winning side.

As an inversion or the comparison usually made: Trump clearly isn’t an evil man. He’s many things, but it would be silly to call him evil. However, a few terrorist attacks, a rise (real or imagined) in immigrant crime, some interracial riots on the streets, and maybe a few decisions that get the backing of the public could be what we’d look back on in 50 years time and say were evil.
 
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Re: What comes after this life ?

Postby action » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:20 am

Elessar wrote:Hitler was a terrible, awful man, but I think history (written by the victors) has fetishised him as the embodiment of pure evil, which is a simplistic view to take. He was the result of the complex geopolitical environment of the time, as well as his own personal environment. And Churchill, votes all time greatest Briton, shared a lot of Hitler’s views. He just happened to end up on the winning side.

As an inversion or the comparison usually made: Trump clearly isn’t an evil man. He’s many things, but it would be silly to call him evil. However, a few terrorist attacks, a rise (real or imagined) in immigrant crime, some interracial riots on the streets, and maybe a few decisions that get the backing of the public could be what we’d look back on in 50 years time and say were evil.


he came to the conclusion that the jews needed to be exterminated, way before that even happened. he wrote it all in his book, 25 years before the holocaust. how do they call that? premediation.

hate against the jews exists pretty much since Jesus died. (or even before, I'm not sure). but until hitler no one came up with the idea to kill them all. this is the part that's quite dodgy. pretty sure churchill didn't share THAT view.

but it's not about wether hitler was or was not bad. (insert your "are we the bàddies" GIF here). it's about what came of his soul (supposed we have one) and why his soul was allowed to do what it did.
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