The controlled demolition of the NHS

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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Trashcat » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:58 pm

fairydandy wrote:I went to the eye ward the other week...how many receptionists were there...three, yes bloody three, doing the job of one and god knows how many nurses and auxiliaries standing around in little groups chatting. It's harsh, I'm being harsh, but maybe things have to change in the NHS (heaven knows what my dad a life-long socialist would think of me for saying this...). :?


With all due respect, maybe that's because it was the eye ward...people standing around is rarely something to see on elderly care, respiratory, general medicine etc.

I hasten to state the obvious, this is from a dogsbody viewpoint, not a medical one.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby JLP » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:17 pm

Trashcat wrote:
fairydandy wrote:I went to the eye ward the other week...how many receptionists were there...three, yes bloody three, doing the job of one and god knows how many nurses and auxiliaries standing around in little groups chatting. It's harsh, I'm being harsh, but maybe things have to change in the NHS (heaven knows what my dad a life-long socialist would think of me for saying this...). :?


With all due respect, maybe that's because it was the eye ward...people standing around is rarely something to see on elderly care, respiratory, general medicine etc.

I hasten to state the obvious, this is from a dogsbody viewpoint, not a medical one.


I have no problem with people standing around talking as long as all the stuff that needs doing has been done. The other day, I was asked by a colleague to check a patient's pulse and blood pressure. She then started chatting to someone else. Why the fuck she didn't do the checks herself is beyond me.
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:11 pm

Interesting court case today.

http://twitter.com/hashtag/JustHealth?src=hash

A group of 5 junior doctors have taken Jeremy Hunt to court, seeking a ruling on whether or not he actually has the legal power to impose the new contract.

Needless to say, it's not being covered by the media (maybe the Guardian will cover it later), but people have been live-tweeting it.

Hunt is apparently claiming he never had any intention of 'imposing' the contract, just of recommending it. He says that when he has said he will 'impose' it, he was in the House of Commons so has parliamentary privilege.

That doesn't sound right to me at all! How can he survive this?
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Loretta » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:26 am

Because Bake Off is far more important. They should have got Mary fucking Berry to represent them.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby JLP » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:33 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37415587

OK as long as Hunt et al reveal their extra earnings.
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:34 pm

I agree that it isn't an attempt to reduce private work. On the contrary, in fact. It's part of the ongoing campaign to erode at public respect and faith in the medical profession so that it becomes easier to privatise the whole system. It SHOULD backfire - ideally the public will see how much doctors earn from the 10% or so private sector and realise that if doctors are fighting for the NHS, it CAN'T be driven by money because they could earn far more if the whole system was private. But that's not the way it will be spun, and the government's PR machine is more powerful than doctors'. For a start, it has its own propaganda channel that is held in a constant ransom scenario, whereby if it speaks out against the government, it too will be privatised.

The Tories are tightening their grasp on us.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:09 pm

The strikes are all off.

And I suspect the court ruling will be that Hunt can't impose a new contract.

No idea what happens next. Different contracts at different hospitals?
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:12 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37546360

It's a nice idea, and would have been a nicer idea 10 years ago when AAA students were being turned away, but the last few years have ruined the job so much that this year the universities couldn't fill all the places in the first round for the first time ever, so they're going to have to lower the standards for entry. Maybe that's not a bad thing - according to people I know who have studied medicine it isn't THAT difficult - but I don't see how lowering the standards in any framework can be seen as a positive step.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:52 pm

The man is unhinged.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 43531.html

So he reckons he can find an extra 1,500 people each year happy to pay 5 x £9000 in tuition fees and then force them to stay in his country, despite his continuing campaign to destroy the NHS through defunding and demoralisation? The man is a maniac. I suspect he knows he will fail but then when the NHS collapses he can point to the unfilled 1,500 places and say "Hey look, I tried! Not my fault! I'm off to join the Virgin Health board now."

I'd imagine anyone who got in before the £9000 fees (in fact before even the £3000 fees) and who will have completed the 4 year quota by the time they want to flee will be feeling pretty relieved around now...

(The thing about Hunt is he went to Oxford. He'll have known medical students there, and they probably annoyed him by being the only students in his college who had a modestly paid public service job lined up rather than the millionaire lifestyle reserved for the rest of his cohort. It will have pissed him off that they were studying while he was attending white tie socials and networking with top brass at private sector firms, and playing credit card roulette with the likes of Bozza and Call Me Dave.)
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Ace » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:56 pm

Elessar wrote:I agree that it isn't an attempt to reduce private work. On the contrary, in fact. It's part of the ongoing campaign to erode at public respect and faith in the medical profession so that it becomes easier to privatise the whole system. It SHOULD backfire - ideally the public will see how much doctors earn from the 10% or so private sector and realise that if doctors are fighting for the NHS, it CAN'T be driven by money because they could earn far more if the whole system was private. But that's not the way it will be spun, and the government's PR machine is more powerful than doctors'. For a start, it has its own propaganda channel that is held in a constant ransom scenario, whereby if it speaks out against the government, it too will be privatised.

The Tories are tightening their grasp on us.


Do you really believe this? Do you honestly believe that any party in the UK has a privatisation agenda? It would be political suicide. Every politician knows this. Also, Cameron, and latterly May, are both committed exponents of the NHS.

The provision of healthcare over the next 50 years is going to be a major challenge to all governments across the world. The demand will make funding using the existing model require almost exponential growth. Alternatively, we can at least discuss initiatives and different approaches to the problems. Why is it that anyone looking at alternatives is deemed an enemy of the NHS? Frankly, I'd respect the argument a bit more if it wasnt based on the idea that the Torries want to let their wealthy business friends profiteer from the NHS, something there is not a shred of evidence to support. It's a sound bite, nothing more.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:02 am

Ace wrote:
Elessar wrote:I agree that it isn't an attempt to reduce private work. On the contrary, in fact. It's part of the ongoing campaign to erode at public respect and faith in the medical profession so that it becomes easier to privatise the whole system. It SHOULD backfire - ideally the public will see how much doctors earn from the 10% or so private sector and realise that if doctors are fighting for the NHS, it CAN'T be driven by money because they could earn far more if the whole system was private. But that's not the way it will be spun, and the government's PR machine is more powerful than doctors'. For a start, it has its own propaganda channel that is held in a constant ransom scenario, whereby if it speaks out against the government, it too will be privatised.

The Tories are tightening their grasp on us.


Do you really believe this? Do you honestly believe that any party in the UK has a privatisation agenda? It would be political suicide. Every politician knows this. Also, Cameron, and latterly May, are both committed exponents of the NHS.

The provision of healthcare over the next 50 years is going to be a major challenge to all governments across the world. The demand will make funding using the existing model require almost exponential growth. Alternatively, we can at least discuss initiatives and different approaches to the problems. Why is it that anyone looking at alternatives is deemed an enemy of the NHS? Frankly, I'd respect the argument a bit more if it wasnt based on the idea that the Torries want to let their wealthy business friends profiteer from the NHS, something there is not a shred of evidence to support. It's a sound bite, nothing more.


Sadly, not wanting it to be true doesn't make it untrue.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ts?0p19G=e
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 65306.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/se ... st-4646154

Those who suggest the various changes to the NHS that involve various degrees of defunding and privatisation should put their cards on the table and say "This will benefit the majority of people, including me, but a small number of the very worst off in society will suffer and I'm okay with that".

Also, people who doubt the sustainability of the NHS (usually heathy people who can afford private healthcare) often blame the problem on an 'ageing population'. Yes, the population is ageing. But an 80 year old has spent their entire working life contributing tax, and will have their assets stripped away to pay for the care they need in old age. They've paid for their healthcare.

Again, people should put their cards on the table. They should be honest, and say: "Thanks for a lifetime of taxes, old people, but we can't really pay for your treatment. You should really have paid for BUPA while you were funding a system that gave us free university education and generous pensions. Oh, and as for you youngsters - we got free degrees but we're not going to pay for you to have the same. You can pay £9,000 a year. Also, let's leave the EU."
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Spook2 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:29 am

JLP wrote:
Trashcat wrote:
fairydandy wrote:I went to the eye ward the other week...how many receptionists were there...three, yes bloody three, doing the job of one and god knows how many nurses and auxiliaries standing around in little groups chatting. It's harsh, I'm being harsh, but maybe things have to change in the NHS (heaven knows what my dad a life-long socialist would think of me for saying this...). :?


With all due respect, maybe that's because it was the eye ward...people standing around is rarely something to see on elderly care, respiratory, general medicine etc.

I hasten to state the obvious, this is from a dogsbody viewpoint, not a medical one.


I have no problem with people standing around talking as long as all the stuff that needs doing has been done. The other day, I was asked by a colleague to check a patient's pulse and blood pressure. She then started chatting to someone else. Why the fuck she didn't do the checks herself is beyond me.



Took my son to the ear nose and throat department at my local hospital when he was younger
he was being checked to see if he had hearing issues as he was / is a slow developer
reception counter SIX - 6 - women working / talking behind it.
Two doors off the reception area
1. ears
2. nose and throats

we got called through to the ear section
I honestly expected a corridor with 5 or 6 doors leading off it to give a reason to all the receptionist
couldn't believe it - one room - 1 doctor - for hearing issues

presume same on other side for nose and throats

therefore six women - who never al worked at once, mostly talking amongst themselves, for 2 doctors

To me, this is an example of how the NHS is most probably well funded, but my god, its not well spent

My nan recently went into hospital, could give very similar examples again, but don't want to bore you all.

NHS
Not enough nurses, doctors
too many admin
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Spook2 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:39 am

Elessar wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37546360

It's a nice idea, and would have been a nicer idea 10 years ago when AAA students were being turned away, but the last few years have ruined the job so much that this year the universities couldn't fill all the places in the first round for the first time ever, so they're going to have to lower the standards for entry. Maybe that's not a bad thing - according to people I know who have studied medicine it isn't THAT difficult - but I don't see how lowering the standards in any framework can be seen as a positive step.



As you say, a bit late, the horse has already bolted as they say

but at least this government is trying to something about an issue that was ignored 10 years ago by the ... labour government

so, is this the Tory party helping the NHS?
did the Labour party, ignore the NHS?

Never, it cant be, can it ?

I am worries that the above presumption might be believed by people, please explain, how in this instance it cannot be.

Most worried

Doris of Ealing !!
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Tue Oct 11, 2016 5:54 pm

Let me try to explain what is happening to the NHS, because a lot of people don't seem to understand it. I certainly don't fully understand it either, but I can make empirical observations that are grounded in fact.

The Tories want to privatise the NHS. I don't necessarily believe they want to privatise it so that they can make millions from cushy jobs on the boards of private healthcare firms, although there is much evidence to suggest that many Tory MPs have significant ties to medical insurance companies and suchlike. I believe they want to privatise it because that is the Conservative ethos - small society, capitalism, services driven by market forces, etc.

The Tories aren't going to put privatisation of the NHS as a manifesto policy. Of course they're not. The public love the NHS and want ti to be protected. The Tories know that.

The Tories don't NEED to say they're going to privatise it. In fact, they can privatise it by pretending to protect it.

They've cleverly changed legislation to allow budgeting decisions to be made on a local level, so that treatments can be withheld based on reasons that can be determined on a postcode lottery basis. It starts with simple stuff. My local hospital no longer offers varicose vein surgery on the NHS. It used to. The public are happy with that decision, because it's essentially a cosmetic procedure. It's not entirely cosmetic though, because untreated varicose veins can cause serious health problems. At that point the NHS will treat them, but many will have already paid to have them done privately before they're eligible for NHS treatment. Other 'non-essential' treatments get withheld. Getting your ears syringed by the GP. Physio following an injury. More than an arbitrary number of counselling sessions. These are all things that the public will accept that we should pay for, because we're constantly told that the NHS costs a fortune and we're all feeling the effects of austerity, and so agree that these things should be cut.

The reality is that although the NHS costs a lot of money, the UK spends well below the average European per capita healthcare spending. Healthcare may cost a lot here, but it costs more in France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, and most certainly the USA.

The goalposts will keep moving. Maybe self-inflicted illnesses will be next. Treatments for drug addiction, smoking-related illnesses, alcohol-related illnesses, obesity-related illnesses. Perhaps we'll be encouraged to change our diets instead of being offered heart surgery (the media might even persuade us that this is our idea!). Contraception, STD treatments, anti-retroviral drugs. Expensive cancer treatments when cheaper, less effective treatments might work. High quality, long-lasting hip prostheses when cheaper ones are usually okay. Residential care for the elderly, when their families can afford private care. And these things are already starting to happen. And the Tories will say that they are doing this to SAVE the NHS.

Before long, people will realise that it's actually a good idea to have private health insurance, and then when they need something that the NHS offers, they'll go privately instead because a gulf will have emerged in the quality of care available.

And then, all that the NHS will provide is emergency treatment for the very poorest in society - which is basically the American model.

And according to the Commonwealth Fund, the UK beats the USA in 11 out of 12 categories when healthcare is examined. And just look at the difference in cost.



http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica ... -countries
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:25 pm

This is how it begins!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37617114

Defund GP practices, shut down the struggling ones, increase pressure on those that survive...they don't have to privatise the NHS, they just need to persuade people to go privately of their own volition, and quietly cut 'non-essential' services with the backing of voters who have been persuaded that the NHS can't afford it!

Permission to re-name this thread to reflect that this is a government war on the entire NHS, not just junior doctors?
 
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