The controlled demolition of the NHS

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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby JLP » Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:37 am

Elessar wrote:The first sniff of a death due to the strike and the right wing press will be all over it. The cynic would say this is what the Tories want, paving the way for privatisation.

It's a bad time to be starting specialty training, that's for sure. I'm having some serious second thoughts about going back...


I know what you mean. I might have an opening with an agency but am remaining cautious due to some of the kicks I have had since February. But I will not work anywhere as busy as the major A/Es unless I really have to.
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby fairydandy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:25 pm

.

(wrong topic)...
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:19 pm

Latest twist: The government have published an equality impact analysis openly saying that the new contracts will adversely affect a disproportionate number of women, but that they're okay with that.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... jd-eia.pdf

"Any indirect adverse effect on women is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Whilst this may disadvantage lone parents (who are disproportionately female) due to the increased cost of paid childcare in the evenings and weekend, in some cases this may actually benefit other women, for example where individuals have partners"

Seriously? They're happy with that paragraph, in 2016?


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... SApp_Other
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby JLP » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:18 pm

Back in 1984, Mrs Thatcher and her Government announced that some mines would close in the UK. They denied widespread closures. This led to the infamous miner's strike that devastated communities and families.

At the time Thatched denied that there was an agenda to close more mines that those announced. Some 30 years later, documents were released that showed their intention all along was to decimate the mining industry.

Now the Tories are accusing the BMA of wanting to bring down the Government whilst others accuse the Government of back door privatisation of the NHS.

Maybe in 2046 we will get to know the truth.
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:53 am

So there's to be a FIVE day strike next month.

A junior doctor I know, who wasn't involved in the earlier strikes because he was living in Australia, isn't sure he can actually afford to lose 5 days salary, and suspects that other junior doctors will feel the same way.

There's been a bit of spin that the BMA is striking against a deal it advocated: the reality is that the BMA put it to a referendum of its members, and its members rejected it (it was a narrow rejection but far more convincing than the nation's rejection of the EU). The new offer is undeniably unfair towards people working less than full time, ie (and in typical Tory fashion) the weaker in society: single parents, carers, the disabled, etc.

So I don't know. This junior doctor I know says he'll think about it over the coming days. His current job involves sitting around watching and learning all day, so the only difference a strike will make to his day will be that he doesn't get paid and his learning is hindered. His absence would make absolutely no difference to patient care whatsoever. If anything, his senior colleagues will be able to work faster as they won't be teaching him, rendering his involvement in the strike pointless.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:09 pm

The junior doctor I know has just realised that elective operations will be cancelled on the strike days, so he won't actually have a job to go to on those days! So his choice is to either strike and lose 5 days salary, or turn up and be redeployed, in all likelihood covering for the striking doctors with service provision roles - which I believe is known as being a scab.

Hmm.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby fairydandy » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:23 pm

Elessar wrote:The junior doctor I know has just realised that elective operations will be cancelled on the strike days, so he won't actually have a job to go to on those days! So his choice is to either strike and lose 5 days salary, or turn up and be redeployed, in all likelihood covering for the striking doctors with service provision roles - which I believe is known as being a scab.

Hmm.


I don't see how the public can support this strike.

From the BBC news website:

◾Basic pay to rise between 10% and 11% on average
◾System of supplements paid which are determined by how many weekends - those working one in two will get 10% on top of basic salary
◾Nights to attract an enhanced rate of 37% above normal time
◾Replaces old system whereby weekend or night work can attract up to double time
◾First doctors to go on new terms in October with much of the rest of the workforce to follow by next summer
◾The British Medical Association says it is not fair on those that work the most weekends or part-timers


As I understand it, the BMA also recommended acceptance of this offer?

They do a great job, but they need to do a great job for 7 days a week, as there are 7 days in a week, not 5. :shock:
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:37 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Elessar wrote:The junior doctor I know has just realised that elective operations will be cancelled on the strike days, so he won't actually have a job to go to on those days! So his choice is to either strike and lose 5 days salary, or turn up and be redeployed, in all likelihood covering for the striking doctors with service provision roles - which I believe is known as being a scab.

Hmm.


I don't see how the public can support this strike.

From the BBC news website:

◾Basic pay to rise between 10% and 11% on average
◾System of supplements paid which are determined by how many weekends - those working one in two will get 10% on top of basic salary
◾Nights to attract an enhanced rate of 37% above normal time
◾Replaces old system whereby weekend or night work can attract up to double time
◾First doctors to go on new terms in October with much of the rest of the workforce to follow by next summer
◾The British Medical Association says it is not fair on those that work the most weekends or part-timers


As I understand it, the BMA also recommended acceptance of this offer?

They do a great job, but they need to do a great job for 7 days a week, as there are 7 days in a week, not 5. :shock:


There's a lot of misinformation going around, that's the problem.

The first thing to say is that doctors already work 7 days a week, and have done for all of living memory.

Hardly anyone just gets 'basic pay'. Most jobs have banding, which is determined based on the number of evenings and weekends the job entails. So basic pay is going up 10-11%, but the banding is being severely cut.
The system you've quoted is 10% on top of basic salary for jobs that are 1-in-2 weekends, which is basically just A&E (although A&E needs 3-in-4 to function, so actually this new contract doesn't work because it limits the number of weekends too much, ironically!), and then a 37% pro rata bonus for nights.
The old system was never that weekends and nights are 'double time'. A shift pattern with heavy out-of-hours commitment would be 1A, which is 50% banding.
But if you do the maths, a typical hospital job of say 1-in-4 weekends and 1-in-8 nights would be 1A banding, so that's basic+50%: plug that into the new system and it's basic+(37%x1-in-8), which is essentially basic+6.25%. Even with the 10-11%, that's basic+17.25% which is quite clearly a pay-cut from basic+40%!

The BMA president did recommend the offer, and resigned when it was rejected at referendum.

The problem is, all doctors are different and have different motivations.

For some, such as those with children, increasing weekend workload for reduced salary is an absolute disaster, because all of a sudden they need to arrange more childcare and have less money to do it with.
For others, working weekends is no big deal but they're very concerned about doctors being pulled off weekdays where they are needed and put onto weekends where they are not, to achieve this idealistic "7 day NHS" when in reality the 5 day + out-of-hour emergency cover system we have is already chronically understaffed. They're concerned that patient safety will be jeopardised during the week for only as modest improvement (and even that hasn't been proven to be the case) at weekends, and they're right to be concerned.
Others will quite frankly just profit from the whole mess by working for silly money on their days off to fill the rota gaps created by Hunt insisting that weekends have the same staffing levels as weekdays despite it being unnecessary, and will save that cash up to psis off to New Zealand.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:58 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37250258

5 days of strikes every month until Christmas.

Well, given that the new contract doesn't get imposed until February, it's nice of the BMA to give junior doctors a 25% pay cut every month until then so that they can get used to what it feels like.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby fairydandy » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:04 pm

Elessar wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37250258

5 days of strikes every month until Christmas.

Well, given that the new contract doesn't get imposed until February, it's nice of the BMA to give junior doctors a 25% pay cut every month until then so that they can get used to what it feels like.


I wish them well. I feel the key will be public support, but I fear the public will soon tire of cancelled appointments. It's ok when the govt. is unpopular, but I don't think they actually are right now. :?
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:30 pm

fairydandy wrote:
Elessar wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37250258

5 days of strikes every month until Christmas.

Well, given that the new contract doesn't get imposed until February, it's nice of the BMA to give junior doctors a 25% pay cut every month until then so that they can get used to what it feels like.


I wish them well. I feel the key will be public support, but I fear the public will soon tire of cancelled appointments. It's ok when the govt. is unpopular, but I don't think they actually are right now. :?


To a certain extent, if they want a better contract they should just grow a backbone and accept that they might lose public support. They don't actually need it. They're doctors because they want to help people and on some level probably want to be liked and respected, but ultimately it's a job, and sick people are still going to come to hospitals, just as commuters are still going to take the Tube no matter how pissed off with Tube drivers they get.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby fairydandy » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:49 pm

Elessar wrote:
To a certain extent, if they want a better contract they should just grow a backbone and accept that they might lose public support. They don't actually need it. They're doctors because they want to help people and on some level probably want to be liked and respected, but ultimately it's a job, and sick people are still going to come to hospitals, just as commuters are still going to take the Tube no matter how pissed off with Tube drivers they get.



Yes, you're right. I think we sometimes forget that it is still a job. I hope they win, they do an amazing job.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:34 pm

The whole thing is all just a small rumble before the real storm that's coming though.
Junior doctors striking won't harm patients at all - consultants can easily cover for them and do a far better job because they are more experienced. Some operations will be cancelled and the media will go bananas about that, but no one will actually come to any harm and essential operations will still happen.

However, the government want to battle hard, and consultants are very keen to support their juniors in fighting back, because after the junior doctor contract is sorted, the consultant contract is next on the agenda.

Consultants really can't have a proper strike because if they do, patients will absolutely suffer and die. So the consultants need the juniors to strike now to push a good deal that they can then use when it's their turn to negotiate. Likewise, the government don't want to give juniors a good deal because then the consultants will want a good deal. And of course, there are twice as many consultants as there are juniors, and they're on 2-3 times the salary of juniors.
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby fairydandy » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:14 pm

I think I have become hard and cold over the last few years, probably due to my current job. Sometimes I forget that people deserve lives outside of work (typical me really, just work, work and more work). Not everyone is like me though, not everyone is so robotic...
 
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Re: UK junior doctors strike

Postby Elessar » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:23 am

Despite the papers saying that only 1-in-3 doctors support this strike, word on the street (/in theatre) is that consultants are going to a lot of effort to make sure hospitals remain safe during the strikes and will be disappointed if the juniors don't follow through on the strikes.
 
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