I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby icy » Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:39 pm

Montavilla wrote:At the time of the news report I heard, there was very little known about the incident. They thought it was seven dead at the time, now the count is up to ten dead, and another seven injured.

One woman told her family, just before going into spinal surgery, that the gunman had targeted Christians. When he started shooting (with the professor of the class), all the students dropped to the ground. He told the Christians to stand up. When they did, he told them they'd be seeing God in ten seconds and shot them.

Obviously, the shooter was deranged. He's dead, so we may never know what he meant by that. Did he hate Christians? Or did he think he was doing them a favor?

The town of Roseburg, where the Umpqua Community College is located, is 22,000 people. This tragedy is going to have a huge impact on the town, and the college. Because one person was able to purchase several semi-automatic weapons, enough ammunition to sustain a prolonged gunfight, and to carry them into a place where people gather. I'm sorry, but there's something very wrong about that.

I like the idea of allowing people single shot weapons. It only took your brother one shot in the air to scare off the thieves, Inny, so it wouldn't have changed things in that case. (On the other hand, if those thieves had been serious enough to get guns themselves, it might have been an entirely different story. The easier it is to obtain semi-automatic weapons, the more likely they would be to have them.)

Yes, criminals would probably still get guns if they wanted them badly enough. But there's always a trade-off. If you make the guns hard enough to get, then they have to spend more money and energy to get them, and therefore, less people will have easy entry into violent crime.

But, I maintain, a huge part of the problem is a culture that keeps sending the message that violence is an acceptable solution to conflict. It's not a solution, it's just a continuation of violence.

There was conflicting reports. I turned over to CNN when I first read JLP's post in the news thread, and I was sure it said the shooter was in custody. I kept switching channels and looking up info on the net.
I have been in scary situations before. At least 3 of the times it ended up dangerous indeed, and I ended up badly injured twice. The fear during an attack and after, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I still can't imagine carrying a gun though.
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Montavilla » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:55 pm

WeeMann wrote:It seems to me that the vast majority of these killing sprees aren't by career criminals, but by "normal" people who've either had some form of breakdown, or have suffered from some kind of mental illness. Making guns illegal (as has been done quite successfully in most developed countries) takes them out of the hands of these people. Yes, career criminals will still find a way to get holds of weapons, but that happens in other countries as well and you don't see these killing sprees in anywhere near the numbers you do in America.


That's a very good point. A career criminal kills mainly for rational reasons (however bad and immoral those reasons are). They aren't looking to cause unnecessary damage or draw attention to their activities by the police. So, in a way, we might be safer from mass shootings if the only people with guns were criminals.

We might be safest if there weren't large companies devoted to the making of weapons -- with the capitalist incentive pushing them to innnovate and make their weapons cheaper, more effective, and easier to obtain. I don't imagine it's possible to push back the clock or stop people (and countries) from creating better, more deadly weapons. It's a basic human instinct.

But this is the price we pay for doing it.
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby HoneyTaylor » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:29 am

I am tired of it constantly being blamed on mental health issues. There are mental health issues in every country all over this world. But because of our ignorant politicians and the NRA we are the only country that doesn't do something about the shootings, who doesn't do something about the horrible gun laws, who doesn't do something about guns being available to mentally ill people and criminals. People do not NEED guns. A gun isn't going to keep you warm at night. A gun doesn't love you. A gun doesn't give you grandchildren. You don't watch your gun perform in a school play. The women, men, children who died at the hands of a murderer with a gun cannot be replaced. They cannot be recreated or rebuilt. They are gone from the lives of their loved ones forever. EVERY life is more important than any gun. PERIOD. :evil: We need to do what Australia did. I am not opposed to hunters having shot guns. And farmers having guns to take care of vermin. And even a gun that holds a few rounds for protection. But anything that holds massive amounts of ammo, takes a clip or is automatic or semi automatic needs to be destroyed.

Also, this is my answer to those idiots on FB to those who say, "If only there was an armed good guy..."
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/armed-vet-destroys-gun-nuts-argument-on-mass-shooters-by-explaining-why-he-didnt-attack-oregon-killer/
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby HoneyTaylor » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:36 am

They called him a hero
In the land of the free
But he wouldn't shake my hand boy
He disappointed me
So I got my hand gun
And I blew him away
That critter was a bad guy
And I had to make him pay

You might fear for my reason
I don't care what they say
Look out baby it's the season
For the mad masquerade
Put out the fire put out the fire put out the fire
Oh you need a bullet like a hole in the head
Put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire
Don't believe what your grand-daddy said

She was my lover
It was a shame that she died
But the constitution's right on my side
'Cause I caught my lover in the neighbour's bed
I got retribution
Filled 'em all full of lead

I've been told it's the fashion
To let me on the streets again
It's nothing but a crime of passion
And I'm not to blame
Put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire
You need a weapon like a hole in the head
Put out the fire, put out the fire, baby put out the fire
And let your sons and daughters sleep sound in their beds

You know a gun never killed nobody
You can ask anyone
People get shot by people
People with guns
Put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire
You need a gun like a hole in the head
Put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire
Just tell me that old fashioned gun law is dead

Shoot, shoot...
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby HoneyTaylor » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:38 am

"Be who you are, say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" - Dr. Seuss
 
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Broooklyn » Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:32 am

I'd kill for this piece of ass. (Alessandra Ambrosio) And it is my right!

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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby WeeMann » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:50 am

HoneyTaylor wrote:I am tired of it constantly being blamed on mental health issues.


No one is blaming it on mental health issues - I'm saying exactly the same as you. My point is that the "Criminals" who Inny is worried will still have guns are not generally the ones involved in these mass shootings.
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby JLP » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:04 am

WeeMann wrote:
HoneyTaylor wrote:I am tired of it constantly being blamed on mental health issues.


No one is blaming it on mental health issues - I'm saying exactly the same as you. My point is that the "Criminals" who Inny is worried will still have guns are not generally the ones involved in these mass shootings.


And my point is that is stupid laws that allow people with issues such as mental health access to guns. The problem is the access not the health issues. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Innuendoes » Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:36 am

How are you going to stop this?

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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Fizzle » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:22 am

julymorning wrote:I'm with you, Icy, and the others that don't like the lax gun laws.

I've managed to live 64 years safely without guns. With guns on hand twice in my life nearly killed innocent people. Well, one of the times it was my husband, and the near victim an off duty cop answering our prowler call. Both times was with rifles, not handguns.

I try not to put myself in places where I might get attacked, now that I'm old enough to know better and realizing how lucky I was in my youth. I know full well things do happen in broad daylight, in the usually safe places. Still, it seems like in those instances that make the news, people were taken by surprise and I believe mayhem and chaos happens so fast my chances of getting off a safe, killing or maiming shot without hitting the wrong person, are nil.

As for killing someone, it would have to be a very, very clear situation that I know for fact it's his/her life or mine before I would take a life. Even then I am not sure I have it in me to shoot someone. That being said, since I've never been in the position where some human monster is doing indescribable horror to someone/thing I love, I am not sure if I'd wish I had a gun then or not. Thing is, hunting rifles and shotguns are legal where handgun are not, and they can be just as lethal, though not as convenient. Maybe that convenience is a bad thing.

I have heard all the pro gun arguments,tons of what if scenarios, they don't sway me.
If other no gun countries' citizens still prefer their way to ours, there has to be some merit in it.


Excellent post. Pretty much sums up how I feel.

I hate to say I'm a bit paranoid, but I am. Being bombarded with the all too common news of shootings makes me worry all the time. Not so much for myself, but my family and friends. My uncle is a security guard at our local community college, what if it happens there? My other uncle worked security at Virginia Tech when that shooting happened. He was an eye witness and one of his good friends died that day. I don't have children, but if I did I would worry about them at school all the time.

I also have family and friends who are very pro gun, and I've heard their arguments many times. Some things I agree with, some things I don't. I don't know what the best solution to all this is, I just know it's scary, out of control, and it doesn't happen like this in other developed countries with stricter laws on guns.
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Kes » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:28 pm

For most places that aren't America, this is a pretty simple argument.

However, America has a couple of major problems. First is the shear quantity of firearms in the country. The next is the fact that individual states have their own laws, which even go as far as capital punishment is prevalent in some states, and not even considered in others.

My argument has always been that if you want a change, like banning something that's almost in some people's blood, then someone has to kick the ball rolling. But I don't think it's as easy to solve THERE, as it has been in other countries.

You can liken it to America starting off a National Heath Service like the UK has. It's such a major upheaval to the system that's currently in place, that you wouldn't know where the fuck to start.
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby HoneyTaylor » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:21 pm

WeeMann wrote:
HoneyTaylor wrote:I am tired of it constantly being blamed on mental health issues.


No one is blaming it on mental health issues - I'm saying exactly the same as you. My point is that the "Criminals" who Inny is worried will still have guns are not generally the ones involved in these mass shootings.


Sorry, I am just venting in general. But the truth is, people with mental health issues do not shoot bullets out of their twisted brains. They do not throw the bullets. They use guns because they are fully aware that with a gun they will be able to do the most amount of damage. :-(
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby HoneyTaylor » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:30 pm

Kes wrote:For most places that aren't America, this is a pretty simple argument.

However, America has a couple of major problems. First is the shear quantity of firearms in the country. The next is the fact that individual states have their own laws, which even go as far as capital punishment is prevalent in some states, and not even considered in others.

My argument has always been that if you want a change, like banning something that's almost in some people's blood, then someone has to kick the ball rolling. But I don't think it's as easy to solve THERE, as it has been in other countries.

You can liken it to America starting off a National Heath Service like the UK has. It's such a major upheaval to the system that's currently in place, that you wouldn't know where the fuck to start.


Very well said Kes. The problem here truly is that there are way too many guns in this country. There is a gun for every man, woman and child living in my country today. That is extremely unnecessary! And I don't believe my countries founding fathers would approve of the semi-automatic weapons and such. It is sad that I live in a nation where people value their guns more than the lives of their fellow man. :(
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Innuendoes » Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:55 pm

It's not the gun owners who have armed themselves to protect themselves and their families. It's the nutcases who have mental issues and go after large crowds of people that we need to worry about and find out WHY we have such people in our midst now. This never happened when I was a teen and a kid and we had the very same guns my brother owns, now. They were my father's WW2 guns. They have never been shot directly at anyone and they've never harmed a single person since WW2.

The man that committed this crime only wanted to kill Christians and he told all Christians to stand, then he proceeded to shoot them in the head. That's a hate crime.

We need to find out what is wrong in this country to cause so much hate of others or specific groups but most of all, I really think and believe anyone buying a gun, nowadays, must be forced to have a psychological evaluation bfore they are allowed to do so, including farmers and hunters, unfortunately. Most of the latter 2 are very decent humans who only have these weapons to kill vermin or hunt. And many hunters do not eat any type of meat from a store due to it being laden with everything under the sun between antibiotics, growth hormones and every other kind of foreign chemical for big business to make more money, faster. Those hunters and farmers are not to blame for the problem in this country. Go look at who have committed these murders. You are going to find that almost every single killer is a young man with a psych problem of some sort and none of them are farmers or hunters or decent human beings. Find the problem and fix it. If they can't use a gun, they will most certainly find another way, be it a knife, sword or pressure cooker and in some cases their own hands.
 
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Re: I am tired of my country's obsession with guns

Postby Kes » Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:16 pm

There's thousands of people all over the world who go on killing sprees on a daily basis, be it paint-balling, or in computer platforms like Call Of Duty.

The common denominator, and what causes massacres of "real" people, is access to "real" firearms.

If I was at all bothered by what's happening, I don't think I'd be trying to justify the 8000 plus deaths you have each year from firearms abuse, with "the peace of mind" argument. That one is barking up the wrong tree, a bit.

The inherent problem you have in the US, is "access", in that anyone who wants a gun, can just go and buy one. It shouldn't be anything like THAT easy.
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