The EU Referendum

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Should we leave the EU?

Poll ended at Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:12 pm

Yes
9
50%
No
9
50%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: The EU Referendum

Postby bigV » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:26 am

Don't mind me, I'm just munching on popcorn here.

Meanwhile, the EU has never been stronger.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 07626.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... doomsayers

V.
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby icy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:34 pm

:mouth:
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Rags are blowing
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And it's getting dark in here~

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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:27 am

Just to make the point clear:

The Brexit deal has been rejected by democratically elected MPs who were elected more recently than the EU referendum. This rejection of Brexit is a reflection of the ‘will of the people’.
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:14 am

May et al have spent 2 years negotiating this deal, and whatever you think of their politics, I think we can all agree that they’ve worked hard and done their best. There is no better deal available; the EU have been clear on that.

This leaves two options:

1) No deal
2) No Brexit

What will it be?
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Sole Survivor » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:38 am

No deal, otherwise no more democracy. Simple as. If we stay, then NO mainstream party will be getting my vote anymore, as they are all corrupt bastards that prefer to line their own pockets and pursue their own agenda, and f*ck the electorate that voted for them.
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby JLP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:30 am

Elessar wrote:May et al have spent 2 years negotiating this deal, and whatever you think of their politics, I think we can all agree that they’ve worked hard and done their best. There is no better deal available; the EU have been clear on that.

This leaves two options:

1) No deal
2) No Brexit

What will it be?


Maybe what she should do is put her deal to the people by extending Article 50. That way, if the people vote for her deal, Parliament will have to vote it through. But let us be fair, 632 skilled politicians, after days of proper debate, rejected her deal. Politicians with far more insight into the ramifications of the deal than the likes of you and I.
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby WeeMann » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:39 am

Sole Survivor wrote:No deal, otherwise no more democracy.


I really don't get this viewpoint. So often we hear "You can't ignore the votes of 17.4 million" yet these same people seem to happily want to ignore the votes of 16.1 million further people. It's not like this was a whitewash by any stretch of the imagination and, as others have pointed out, the further down the road we get, the more information we get, meaning the 2016 vote almost certainly doesn't represent the way the country feels now.

How on earth can a 2nd referendum be undemocratic?
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:01 am

WeeMann wrote:
Sole Survivor wrote:No deal, otherwise no more democracy.


I really don't get this viewpoint. So often we hear "You can't ignore the votes of 17.4 million" yet these same people seem to happily want to ignore the votes of 16.1 million further people. It's not like this was a whitewash by any stretch of the imagination and, as others have pointed out, the further down the road we get, the more information we get, meaning the 2016 vote almost certainly doesn't represent the way the country feels now.

How on earth can a 2nd referendum be undemocratic?


Because it’s not what Team Brexit want I guess.

I mean, the MPs that voted down this Brexit deal were all democratically elected as well.
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Spook2 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:21 am

Elessar wrote:May et al have spent 2 years negotiating this deal, and whatever you think of their politics, I think we can all agree that they’ve worked hard and done their best. There is no better deal available; the EU have been clear on that.

This leaves two options:

1) No deal
2) No Brexit

What will it be?



Agree with this

what frustrates me is these top politicians stating that they could go to the EU and get a significantly better deal

Boris - The EU say they will insist on the Backdrop - seems a ploy by them to keep us in EU, but that's politics, he says go back, and get it removed. Unless he has some top info - it will not happen

Corbyn with we will be in this - out of that - not pay for this - will not allow FOMove - will allow FOM because I want to remain in the Customs Union, HE is very poor. Offers nothing - don't trust him one bit. An attempted populist, which will bring harm to the country should he get in.

The vote said - in or out - simple

80% of the voters in the last election voted for parties that said OUT

If between them they cannot sort it, then what the hell do we have them for

Weak decision makers like this encourage extreme politics.
By weak I am not referring to just the Tory party alone I am talking about th 80% ers
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:37 am

It also highlights a big problem with our democracy. I appreciate that Brexiters value the referendum above the subsequent general election, but constitutionally they’re of equal worth and equal worthlessness. We have an electorate who voted to leave the EU and voted in a group of MPs who want us to remain. That state of affairs is fundamentally unsustainable but there’s also currently no clear alternative. The public have answered two questions and given two incompatible answers. Now we have both sides claiming that their form of democracy trumps the other.

We need to accept that democracy is not the holy grail of politics. Democracy could be two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner (Benjamin Franklin). Do we value the majority opinion shared by the wolves so highly that we’ll accept their answer despite the effect it has on the sheep? Or will we protect the sheep? And if so, who decides who gets protected and who doesn’t? We might ensure that vulnerable minorities don’t suffer from populist decisions, but how do we deal with h savoury minority views, eg those of the BNP? How do we decide whether they’re even unsavoury or not? If we put that back to public opinion, we’re back with the same problem: A public who might become discriminatory against a different vulnerable group - Jews in the 1930s, Muslims in the 2000s.

In the past higher powers have been called upon for moral guidance. Holy texts etc. Or a monarchy. Or the UK system of Lords and the Monarchy. Or maybe look at neighbouring countries for inspiration - but radical politics can spread like a cancer (see both the rise of communism and the rise of fascism) and countries can fall like dominos.

Who knows what the ultimate answer is. There probably isn’t one. I feel that it probably starts and ends with education, and that maybe everyone should study Greek philosophy from the age of about 4. I wish I had!
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby JLP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:02 pm

We should have known this would happen after Cameron failed to get any concessions prior to the referendum being announced. Instead we were promised this and that it we stayed/left and threatened with this or that is we stayed/left.

Maybe they should have done the negotiations first and then said to the people, this is the deal on the table if we leave. Then ran the referendum with the same question we were asked in 2016.

The result might well have been The same but we would not be in the sorry mess we find ourselves in at the present time.
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Elessar » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:40 am

Even the most hardline Brexiter must surely agree that this has been handled appallingly right from the very start.
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby JLP » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:18 am

Elessar wrote:Even the most hardline Brexiter must surely agree that this has been handled appallingly right from the very start.


Looking at the news this morning, most opposition parties want a commitment to a no deal Brexit but I can see that happening due to May refusing to move her red lines.
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Elessar » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:22 am

JLP wrote:
Elessar wrote:Even the most hardline Brexiter must surely agree that this has been handled appallingly right from the very start.


Looking at the news this morning, most opposition parties want a commitment to a no deal Brexit but I can see that happening due to May refusing to move her red lines.


No one with the intelligence necessary to navigate one's way to the Houses of Parliament wants a no-deal Brexit, not even the likes of Rees-Mogg, Johnson or even Farage. They surely won't let it come to that.
 
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Re: The EU Referendum

Postby Spook2 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:29 am

Elessar wrote:Even the most hardline Brexiter must surely agree that this has been handled appallingly right from the very start.



It has, but when the EU is determined to make it difficult to leave with a good deal to stop others it is always going to be hard

two things I cannot understand

backstop / physical border
said its required to check goods from ROI / EU entering NI / UK. But in dover, Southampton, Liverpool, etc do we have hundreds of people in yellow jackets checking, going through item by item every container that arrives from China, India, etc. NO. so why is a physical border required in Ireland

NOW
PM says she will talk with everyone / main party leaders and staunch remainers and Brexiters. Yet JC wont talk to her until certain items are agreed, eg - No deal is not an option. WHY impose these requirements. He freely talked to the IRA whilst they were killing UK citizens, he freely talked to Hamas, etc, etc, with NO prior requirements. double standards. He just wants chaos and nothing more.
As a business owner I am truly scared of that man getting in nr 10. economic disaster will follow.
 
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