Atheism...

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Re: Atheism...

Postby fairydandy » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:42 pm

YAFF wrote:LOL> Atheists love to think they are under no obligations to defend their opinions. There is a difference between saying "There is no god or gods" and "I don't believe in a god or gods". The former is a claim of knowledge. How do you know "there is no god or gods"? If a god-believer says "there is a god" you will ask for proof. Fair enough. If you say "there is no god" you should have the 'nads to show your work. Otherwise you're just an arrogant twat. You really don't know whether there is or isn't. Agnosticism really is the most reasonable position. I'm an agnostic that believes God is more probable than not.


The statement that 'there is no god' only really works once a person has claimed that there is one. The answer is really for people to stop claiming that there is one, then no answer is required. There is no proof of god, there is nothing, just a hope. That's fine of course, but we need to get the argument the right way around.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby musicalprostitute » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:29 am

sebastian wrote:
YAFF wrote:LOL> Atheists love to think they are under no obligations to defend their opinions.


Because we're not. Neither are agnostics, pantheists, deists or theists, by the way. If we want to keep on living (for a while at least), we're only under obligation of breathing, eating and eliminating waste. Everything else is optional.

YAFF wrote:There is a difference between saying "There is no god or gods" and "I don't believe in a god or gods".


For practical purporses it's the same thing. There's also a difference between saying 'There is no Zeus' and 'I don't believe in Zeus.' Or Yoda, Harry Potter, Spiderman, unicorns, etc. If people can be sure Pennywise the Clown is fictional (since there's a lot of evidence supporting the hypothesis that she was a character created by Stephen King to earn some money) then the same can be applied to Jehovah, Allah, Yahweh, Christ, Vishnu, etc.

YAFF wrote:If a god-believer says "there is a god" you will ask for proof.


No, I won't. They're entitled to say that. Just like I'm entitled to say there isn't.

YAFF wrote:Otherwise you're just an arrogant twat.


No. An arrogant twat is one who believes his/her religion is the right one just because; one who believes the vast and enormous universe was made with them/us in mind; one who believes the universe can't go on without him/her so there must be an afterlife; one who believes a skydaddy will bend the rules of physics at will but won't do it to prevent a kid from being raped by a priest, but instead will focus on answering pleas to find the carkeys or for a traffic light to change from amber to green sooner or for someone's favourite football team to score.

YAFF wrote:You really don't know whether there is or isn't.


So, if someone says Harry Potter doesn't exist (as opposed to 'I don't believe Harry Potter exists'), are they an arrogant twat?


Ah, the voice of reason and logic; well stated, Sebastian. Absolutely spot on.

I can never get my head around the way these religious types think: basically, if someone says something exists then it must exist unless the rest of us can prove otherwise. And the fucking arrogance of them all - thinking that their non existent god will lend a helping hand if they pray to him because their trivial little problems are obviously far more important than starvation around the globe, kids dying of cancer, etc...it is all so mental it beggars belief.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby Roger » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:48 pm

YAFF wrote:LOL> Atheists love to think they are under no obligations to defend their opinions. There is a difference between saying "There is no god or gods" and "I don't believe in a god or gods". The former is a claim of knowledge. How do you know "there is no god or gods"? If a god-believer says "there is a god" you will ask for proof. Fair enough. If you say "there is no god" you should have the 'nads to show your work. Otherwise you're just an arrogant twat. You really don't know whether there is or isn't. Agnosticism really is the most reasonable position. I'm an agnostic that believes God is more probable than not.


Bit late to the party here...

I'm not sure how we ever disagreed on this! Or maybe we didn't, and we disagreed about whether there 'probably is' or 'probably isn't a god (there totes probably/almost certainly isn't). The burden of proof should be with whoever is trying to convince the other that they're right. If people want to wander through life believing or not believing in god and never talking about it or influencing others with their beliefs, that's all fine. It's when they start interacting and letting their beliefs influence laws that evidence needs to come into it.

If atheists and believers are sat around the same table discussing religion so that laws can be drawn up, I'd say that the burden of proof is completely with the believers. If they can't prove there's a god, just as they can't prove there's a unicorn on Mars, then their beliefs shouldn't enter into the discussion when it comes to drawing up a set of laws, or deciding what's taught as fact in schools, or which country to illegally invade or whatever.

And if believers and atheists want to have a theological debate, and both enter the debate willingly, I'd again say that the burden of proof lies with the believers. They're the ones making an extraordinary claim; the atheists are just saying that they don't believe it. It's a lack of a belief rather than a belief.

But if a believer is innocently and quietly going about their day, believing in god but not making a big deal about it, and some atheist marches up to them and starts telling them that they're wrong, I'd completely agree that the burden of proof is with the atheist.

And of course it's also intellectually poor for anyone to say they're 100% certain either way; but in day-to-day terms I'm pretty happy to say that although I can't be certain that there's no god, there's no evidence, it seems pretty unlikely, and I'm going to live life assuming there isn't one, and that if there is, he's hopefully not a jealous, petty child who'll punish me for using the brain he's given me to decide he doesn't exist.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby sebastian » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:37 pm

Yeah. I mean, I cannot prove Harry Potter doesn't exist, but I can trust the mountains of evidence pointing at him being an imaginary character conceived by JK Rowling in order to sell some books and earn some money. Likewise, I cannot prove any of the gods humanity has worshipped doesn't exist, but I can trust the mountains of evidence pointing at each and everyone of them being imaginary characters conceived by either people who wanted explanations and knew no better, or people who wanted to con others and got away with that, and still do to this day.
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Re: Atheism...

Postby Roger » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:22 pm

sebastian wrote:Yeah. I mean, I cannot prove Harry Potter doesn't exist, but I can trust the mountains of evidence pointing at him being an imaginary character conceived by JK Rowling in order to sell some books and earn some money. Likewise, I cannot prove any of the gods humanity has worshipped doesn't exist, but I can trust the mountains of evidence pointing at each and everyone of them being imaginary characters conceived by either people who wanted explanations and knew no better, or people who wanted to con others and got away with that, and still do to this day.


Well yeah exactly.

At a push, we could get JK Rowling to confirm that she made up Harry Potter, although some nutter would probably say that she could only make him up because he was influencing her thoughts or some rubbish like that.

It’s almost entirely a semantic argument. Practically speaking I’m completely atheist. But if I’m defining myself in the strictest intellectual sense, I have to be agnostic.

Incidentally it’s weird how we have a sweet spot of respectability when it comes to religion. Anyone who believes in Zeus or Thor would be fair game for ridicule, and likewise Scientology and Mormonism are often mocked. It seems like you need to believe something older than around 500 years but more recent than about 3000 years, otherwise it’s plainly silly.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby julymorning » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:46 am

It has been said on this forum before, and it has been ignored by the ones that want to keep an argument going or have the last word. But I'll say it again. Whatever you believe, you have to have at some point proven it to yourself.

If you don't believe an omniscient Creator exists, something(s) in your life made you believe that. I seriously doubt someone would come to that conclusion by a random statement they heard or read somewhere, and then accept it at face value.

Same with the belief that one does exist.

This does trash the idea of maintaining your beliefs because of family or friends something you sort of inherited, because at some point in your life you have asked yourself THE question, at least in your heart, that etched an aye or nay down deep. This doesn't apply to those still on the fence.

So, anyone here trying to 'prove' anything to someone else is wasting their time.
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Re: Atheism...

Postby fairydandy » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:45 am

julymorning wrote:If you don't believe an omniscient Creator exists, something(s) in your life made you believe that. I seriously doubt someone would come to that conclusion by a random statement they heard or read somewhere, and then accept it at face value.


July, that's a really stupid argument. :roll: Like the majority on here, I will wait until proof of a creator (and I refuse to capitalise that word) is given before I believe it, but you have the default position all the wrong way around. Why on earth would a person need someone or something to tell them not to believe in something that they don't believe in anyway? :?

If you believe in god, seriously, that's ok by me (I'm long past telling people to fuck off for having idiotic views) but please stop making out that the default position for human beings is 'belief', because it isn't and you have no proof or evidence of such a claim.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby Roger » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:04 am

fairydandy wrote:
julymorning wrote:If you don't believe an omniscient Creator exists, something(s) in your life made you believe that. I seriously doubt someone would come to that conclusion by a random statement they heard or read somewhere, and then accept it at face value.


July, that's a really stupid argument. :roll: Like the majority on here, I will wait until proof of a creator (and I refuse to capitalise that word) is given before I believe it, but you have the default position all the wrong way around. Why on earth would a person need someone or something to tell them not to believe in something that they don't believe in anyway? :?

If you believe in god, seriously, that's ok by me (I'm long past telling people to fuck off for having idiotic views) but please stop making out that the default position for human beings is 'belief', because it isn't and you have no proof or evidence of such a claim.


Belief in god probably is the default position for the many millions (billions?) who were indoctrinated as children. But yes, in terms of logic and the scientific method, the default position should be the null hypothesis that there is no god.

I think one of the biggest challenges we face today is the latest wave of anti-intellectualism. It’s been a problem for centuries but it’s certainly had a new surge in the last decade. It’s all well and good saying that logically and scientifically the default position should be that there’s no god, but when people challenge the very premise of logic and science (“what about your FAITH in science??!” they say, thinking it’s profound when in fact it’s completely vacuous) there’s literally no common ground to work with.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby Roger » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:05 am

Image
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby sacko » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:07 am

fairydandy wrote:
julymorning wrote:If you don't believe an omniscient Creator exists, something(s) in your life made you believe that. I seriously doubt someone would come to that conclusion by a random statement they heard or read somewhere, and then accept it at face value.


July, that's a really stupid argument. :roll: Like the majority on here, I will wait until proof of a creator (and I refuse to capitalise that word) is given before I believe it, but you have the default position all the wrong way around. Why on earth would a person need someone or something to tell them not to believe in something that they don't believe in anyway? :?

If you believe in god, seriously, that's ok by me (I'm long past telling people to fuck off for having idiotic views) but please stop making out that the default position for human beings is 'belief', because it isn't and you have no proof or evidence of such a claim.
<

it isn't possible to prove god exists (or not exist, for that matter), i think that is pretty much a given

frankly, asking for proof in this matter is kind of a wind up, isnt it? is some kind of back and forth argument, that goes on and on, and will never reach a conclusion.

I believe in god, i dont have proof for god's existence, and wether you believe in god or not, doesnt affect me at all.

can we make one issue crystal clear though. cos this is annoying me a great fucking deal.

"It's ok for you" but that's kind of a back handed statement, when you go on calling us views idiotic in your ensuing tirade

I refuse to be called idiotic for my beliefs, again. reasons for it to be idiotic, arent given. the biggest idiot, is the one making such blatant insults.
Last edited by sacko on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby sacko » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:18 am

Roger wrote:Image


i bet that dude gets a lot of pussy
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby Roger » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:30 am

sacko wrote:
Roger wrote:Image


i bet that dude gets a lot of pussy


Don’t tell me that if he looked at you that way across a bar you wouldn’t go weak at the knees.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby Innuendoes » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:38 am

Roger wrote:
Don’t tell me that if he looked at you that way across a bar you wouldn’t go weak at the knees.


:lol: no way.
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Re: Atheism...

Postby sacko » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:39 am

Roger wrote:Don’t tell me that if he looked at you that way across a bar you wouldn’t go weak at the knees.


i could come up with a joke about gays, but it seems no one these days appreciates jokes, let alone inappropriate ones.

gone are the good old days where we could make fun of gays, women, gassing people, without the fear of losing your work or your social status. anyone remember when roger moore made sexist jokes in his bond movies? when he oracled "a woman? :o " can't have that anymore. what the hell is this world coming to :roll:

people who get offended are pussies. being offended is an irrationality.

offended people are funny, i guess.
 
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Re: Atheism...

Postby JLP » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:30 am

sacko wrote:
Roger wrote:Don’t tell me that if he looked at you that way across a bar you wouldn’t go weak at the knees.


i could come up with a joke about gays, but it seems no one these days appreciates jokes, let alone inappropriate ones.

gone are the good old days where we could make fun of gays, women, gassing people, without the fear of losing your work or your social status. anyone remember when roger moore made sexist jokes in his bond movies? when he oracled "a woman? :o " can't have that anymore. what the hell is this world coming to :roll:

people who get offended are pussies. being offended is an irrationality.

offended people are funny, i guess.


Never heard a joke about gassing people. Anyone spreading that sort of stuff must be seriously fucked up. I have a couple of Belgian lawyer jokes though. What s the collective name for a group of Belgian lawyers? A troll.

What do you call a number of Belgian lawyers at the bottom of a very deep sea? A start.
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