The New News Thread.

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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Spook2 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:07 pm

Elessar wrote:
Spook2 wrote:
Elessar wrote:

They’re not being treated equally by you. Would you have an issue with a man wearing a ski mask?



in a bank YES I bleedin well would


I'd also have an issue with someone wearing a bikini in a bank. What's your point?



Why would you have an issue with a bikini ?
then again if it was a bloke so would I

Why? would you feel embarrassed looking at lady in a bikini?
make you nervous would it?



Anyway, if you are not allowed in a bank with a motorbike helmet on, why with the burka are you allowed?

At my local golf club we are not allowed to wear our caps in the bar area?
I wonder what the rule is on a burka.
if asked to remove it, would they (the golf club) be deemed to be racist
mmmm I wonder
by the way, my golf club is modern, we allow women into the bar area to drink as well as serve
now that progressive.

no doubt it will happen one day, but alas, no women have joined our club yet who wear the burka
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:08 pm

Wearing a burkha has been compared, in a stunningly insensitive way, to being raped, on the basis that some people are forced to wear a burkha.

The logic that burkhas should be banned because some people are forced to wear them is as warped as suggesting that because some people are raped, there should be total ban on sex.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby action » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:20 pm

Elessar wrote:

Why do you think you are able to diagnose young, independent women with a psychiatric disorder because they are behaving in a way that you don’t approve of?


because these women are showing strange and illogical behaviour, ie willingly putting on humiliating clothing that looks like a mailbox
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby action » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:23 pm

Elessar wrote:Wearing a burkha has been compared, in a stunningly insensitive way, to being raped, on the basis that some people are forced to wear a burkha.

The logic that burkhas should be banned because some people are forced to wear them is as warped as suggesting that because some people are raped, there should be total ban on sex.


the stunning part is you fail to see the humiliating aspect of burqa's

do you think a burqa looks flattering on any woman?

you who seems so confident that some women wear them out of free will: why? according to your expert opinion, what is so great about burqa's that women want to wear them?
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:24 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:

Why do you think you are able to diagnose young, independent women with a psychiatric disorder because they are behaving in a way that you don’t approve of?


because these women are showing strange and illogical behaviour, ie willingly putting on humiliating clothing that looks like a mailbox


From the Mental Capacity Act 2005, the most relevant parts being 1 and 3:

1. A person must be assumed to have capacity unless it is established that he/she lacks capacity.

2. A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision unless all practicable steps to help him/her to do so have been taken without success.

3. A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because he/she makes an unwise decision.

4. An act done, or decision made, under this Act for or on behalf of a person who lacks capacity must be done, or made, in his/ her best interests.

5. Before the act is done, or the decision is made, regard must be had to whether the purpose for which it is needed can be as effectively achieved in a way that is less restrictive of the person’s rights and freedom of action.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:25 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:Wearing a burkha has been compared, in a stunningly insensitive way, to being raped, on the basis that some people are forced to wear a burkha.

The logic that burkhas should be banned because some people are forced to wear them is as warped as suggesting that because some people are raped, there should be total ban on sex.


the stunning part is you fail to see the humiliating aspect of burqa's

do you think a burqa looks flattering on any woman?

you who seems so confident that some women wear them out of free will: why? according to your expert opinion, what is so great about burqa's that women want to wear them?


It doesn’t matter what I think. It’s not about me, or you. It’s about what THEY think.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby action » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:25 pm

Elessar wrote:The logic that burkhas should be banned because some people are forced to wear them is as warped as suggesting that because some people are raped, there should be total ban on sex.


have you been following the MeToo campaign?

plenty of women who "willingly" had sex with people in a power position, are filing complaints
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:27 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:The logic that burkhas should be banned because some people are forced to wear them is as warped as suggesting that because some people are raped, there should be total ban on sex.


have you been following the MeToo campaign?

plenty of women who "willingly" had sex with people in a power position, are filing complaints


That is a false equivalence. Having sex requires two people. Wearing a burkha can be an entirely individual, independent decision. No one has made a #MeToo complaint about willingly masturbating alone in their bedroom.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby action » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Elessar wrote:
It doesn’t matter what I think. It’s not about me, or you. It’s about what THEY think.


you make the illogical claim that 'some" women wear them out of free will. Personally, I can not get my head around that fact, but you obviously do, so it is with great interest that I asked you that question.

but you refuse to answer. Seems even you can not fully back up your argument. You're having a laugh, do you?
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby action » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:31 pm

Elessar wrote:
action wrote:
Elessar wrote:

Why do you think you are able to diagnose young, independent women with a psychiatric disorder because they are behaving in a way that you don’t approve of?


because these women are showing strange and illogical behaviour, ie willingly putting on humiliating clothing that looks like a mailbox


From the Mental Capacity Act 2005, the most relevant parts being 1 and 3:

1. A person must be assumed to have capacity unless it is established that he/she lacks capacity.

2. A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision unless all practicable steps to help him/her to do so have been taken without success.

3. A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because he/she makes an unwise decision.

4. An act done, or decision made, under this Act for or on behalf of a person who lacks capacity must be done, or made, in his/ her best interests.

5. Before the act is done, or the decision is made, regard must be had to whether the purpose for which it is needed can be as effectively achieved in a way that is less restrictive of the person’s rights and freedom of action.


as they teach you in law school, the law of a country is rooted in the culture and needs of the country.

laws were different in the '30s in western europe, the french revolution and so on.

Law is changing constantly, adapting to new situations.

"Forcing women to wear burqa's" is arguably a very new and complex phenomenon, in our western countries. That act is clearly not adequate to address such issues and is thus in serious need of revision
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:37 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:
action wrote:because these women are showing strange and illogical behaviour, ie willingly putting on humiliating clothing that looks like a mailbox


From the Mental Capacity Act 2005, the most relevant parts being 1 and 3:

1. A person must be assumed to have capacity unless it is established that he/she lacks capacity.

2. A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision unless all practicable steps to help him/her to do so have been taken without success.

3. A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision merely because he/she makes an unwise decision.

4. An act done, or decision made, under this Act for or on behalf of a person who lacks capacity must be done, or made, in his/ her best interests.

5. Before the act is done, or the decision is made, regard must be had to whether the purpose for which it is needed can be as effectively achieved in a way that is less restrictive of the person’s rights and freedom of action.


as they teach you in law school, the law of a country is rooted in the culture and needs of the country.

laws were different in the '30s in western europe, the french revolution and so on.

Law is changing constantly, adapting to new situations.

"Forcing women to wear burqa's" is arguably a very new and complex phenomenon, in our western countries. That act is clearly not adequate to address such issues and is thus in serious need of revision


The Act exists mostly to aid decisions about medical treatment. It means that if you want to save someone’s life and they want to be a fucktard and refuse what you’re offering them because they think magic crystals are better, the decision in itself doesn’t mean they lack capacity.

Likewise with burkhas. The fact that you, as a male non-Muslim, don’t understand why someone would choose to wear one and that you therefore think it’s a crazy thing to do does not mean that if she wears one she is automatically crazy.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:39 pm

action wrote:
Elessar wrote:
It doesn’t matter what I think. It’s not about me, or you. It’s about what THEY think.


you make the illogical claim that 'some" women wear them out of free will. Personally, I can not get my head around that fact, but you obviously do, so it is with great interest that I asked you that question.

but you refuse to answer. Seems even you can not fully back up your argument. You're having a laugh, do you?


I don’t want to speak on behalf of people with whom I have very little in common, being neither female nor Muslim. They have their reasons. I’m sure those reasons are based on culture and faith. That’s up to them. All I’m interested in is defending their right to do what they want to do, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else. I don’t have to like or understand what they choose to do. That’s not the point of independence and tolerance.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:45 pm

Here’s another female Muslim perspective:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/669953

The general jist is that she hates her burkha because it attracts attention from racists and people who think they’re saving her from non-existent oppression.
 
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby action » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:02 pm

Elessar wrote: All I’m interested in is defending their right to do what they want to do, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else.


but you can never be quite sure if they really do what they want to do, right? you can watch 100 videos of muslim women telling us they do it voluntarily, but if these women suffer from stockholm syndrome it's a real problem.

people voluntarily smoke, but it's harmfull nonetheless. So the law forbids smoking in public buildings etc. there are messages on the package and the taxes are exhorbitant, in order to disencourage smokers.

But as bad as smoking is, it doesnt compare to the life-long humiliation of having to wear a burqa and be devoid of all kinds of freedoms that men have. That can not, and will not, be tolerated in a democratic state. You don't care, but that attitude is incompatible with our freedom rights, which our ancestors fought bloody wars for. Including, probably, your ancestors at some point.
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Re: The New News Thread.

Postby Elessar » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:03 pm

I don’t know many people who wear traditional Islamic dress. I know a handful, and all hijabs rather than burkhas.

I remember one interaction with someone who wore a hijab. Unfortunately to tell the story fully I have to do some self-disclosure which exposes me to having it used against me in the future by the usual suspects, but so be it.

This woman was very distressed about the possibility that she would wake up, surrounded by people she didn’t know, and wouldn’t be wearing her hijab. She was okay with the idea of not wearing it whilst she was sleeping. There were no Muslim men present. The only other Muslim around was the female interpreter, who was not wearing any form of Islamic clothing.

So what did I do? I put her hijab back on before she woke up (I think I got someone far more competent than me to do it properly). Why wouldn’t I? Some people are distressed about waking up at the wrong time, about not waking up at all, or about feeling pain. This woman’s only worry was her identity and her culture being taken away from her when she was at her most vulnerable. There was no one there oppressing her. No external malevolent forces. She wanted to be wearing a hijab as she went off to sleep, and wanted to still be wearing it when she woke up. That was her decision and one that it was important that I respected.
 
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