Citrullus Lanatus II

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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Delilah » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:10 am

I can't imagine how there could be stars and planets and all us people without God. Therefore, God is real.

*Argument from personal incredulity.
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:11 am

I can't imagine how there could be a Nick Clegg without God, therefore God is real.
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:15 am

In other news, I write for these clowns now:

http://www.layscience.net/

My only article so far is copied from my personal blog. I'll write one on the election and fox-hunting soon, as soon as I can find a way to link it to science.
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:02 pm

Elessar wrote:Naaaah, it's progressive.

Circular = God exists because the Bible says so, the Bible is right because it was written by God.


I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good
I know the Good Book knows it's good because a really good book would
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:04 pm

Elessar wrote:In other news, I write for these clowns now:

http://www.layscience.net/

My only article so far is copied from my personal blog. I'll write one on the election and fox-hunting soon, as soon as I can find a way to link it to science.


Well according to one supermoron on the Horse and Hound forum, there is definitely a science angle;

I had a quick word with this Dr May, and he replied as follows:

'My good man, don't you realise I am a CELEBRITY! How dare you have your own opinion on this matter - I am FAMOUS, and therefore know much more than you do about EVERYTHING.'

I pointed out that I do live on Exmoor and had some small knowledge of the rural infrastructure, and the way the hunts contributed to humanitarian control and conservation of what would otherwise be agricultural vermin, but he was not to be swayed. ' But,' he said,' from my years of playing in a band, just like Paul Macartery, I KNOW hunting is bad for the countryside. I AM A CELEBRITY SO IT MUST BE TRUE'.

'Ah', I said ' then you haven't read the recent book by David Harrison called 'Silent Summer'. Contributions from 40 scientists indicate that hunting is a great force for conservation in the countryside'. 'David Harrison?' said Dr Maybe 'now wasn't he lead guitar with the Wassoons..?
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Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:10 pm

Deeeee come back, El says he's scrambled his password and hidden it, so that he can't keep coming here instead of doing work. :lol:
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Delilah » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:42 am

What a loser. :P

Lemme see...in-depth discussions. I was thinking about this last night. It is a rare occasion that I actually miss being religious. Actually, the only time I miss it is when I think about death. I guess I'm just enough egocentric that I'm really bothered by the concept of nonexistence. It's stupid to be bothered by it, I guess, as I won't be able to look back and regret having died if life ends when the brain dies. Even hell sounds preferable not existing, because not existing isn't something that I can comprehend and it's a slam to the ego at the same time. Show me some evidence of a "soul" or whatever, and I'll jump for joy. That was the single most distressing thing about realizing that I didn't believe anymore. It took that security blanket away and left me cold and alone, and destined to actually die. I still read articles claiming proof of ghosts or near-death experiences. I regret to report that I've not seen one single article, story, or study that contained an ounce of evidence that could stand up under the mildest of skepticism.

That is, I think, the only true negative about non-belief. I sometimes wish I was capable of just enough wish-thinking to expect an afterlife. If there wasn't so much other bullshit involved in most every religion tied up in being "good" enough for the right afterlife, I might go along with your view that it's good to be religious. Because if you're wrong about there being an afterlife, you'll never know anyway. But we put so much human nonsense in it like demonizing sex, in/out-group mentalities (only we know the truth and all others are wrong and will pay), and numerous arcane rules that determine your eternal destination, etc. The stupid dogmas take away from what might be all that we have.

If there's no evidence for an afterlife, isn't it best to know and accept that and make the most of the life we have? Be better people to one another because to ruin this life is to ruin everything that we will ever know? Doesn't it make every crime, every rude gesture just that much worse if this is truly it for us? Or is it better to believe that this isn't it for us?

Oh hell, maybe one day we'll all be able to upload ourselves into computers and live forever in a virtual reality. That's kind of heaven, until that blue screen of death hits. :P And as if we could do that and not be programming viruses into our neighbors. We'd still fuck it up somehow.
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:36 pm

Delilah wrote:What a loser. :P

Lemme see...in-depth discussions. I was thinking about this last night. It is a rare occasion that I actually miss being religious. Actually, the only time I miss it is when I think about death. I guess I'm just enough egocentric that I'm really bothered by the concept of nonexistence. It's stupid to be bothered by it, I guess, as I won't be able to look back and regret having died if life ends when the brain dies. Even hell sounds preferable not existing, because not existing isn't something that I can comprehend and it's a slam to the ego at the same time. Show me some evidence of a "soul" or whatever, and I'll jump for joy. That was the single most distressing thing about realizing that I didn't believe anymore. It took that security blanket away and left me cold and alone, and destined to actually die. I still read articles claiming proof of ghosts or near-death experiences. I regret to report that I've not seen one single article, story, or study that contained an ounce of evidence that could stand up under the mildest of skepticism.

That is, I think, the only true negative about non-belief. I sometimes wish I was capable of just enough wish-thinking to expect an afterlife. If there wasn't so much other bullshit involved in most every religion tied up in being "good" enough for the right afterlife, I might go along with your view that it's good to be religious. Because if you're wrong about there being an afterlife, you'll never know anyway. But we put so much human nonsense in it like demonizing sex, in/out-group mentalities (only we know the truth and all others are wrong and will pay), and numerous arcane rules that determine your eternal destination, etc. The stupid dogmas take away from what might be all that we have.

If there's no evidence for an afterlife, isn't it best to know and accept that and make the most of the life we have? Be better people to one another because to ruin this life is to ruin everything that we will ever know? Doesn't it make every crime, every rude gesture just that much worse if this is truly it for us? Or is it better to believe that this isn't it for us?

Oh hell, maybe one day we'll all be able to upload ourselves into computers and live forever in a virtual reality. That's kind of heaven, until that blue screen of death hits. :P And as if we could do that and not be programming viruses into our neighbors. We'd still fuck it up somehow.



It's a very, very strange topic. I struggle with this a little bit, because while religion and afterlife almost invariably go hand in hand, I'm not sure that God and an afterlife do. I don't doubt much there's intent behind existence, for me no rational analysis makes sense unless at some point, something defied the laws of physics as we know them now and caused ...well everything. It is entirely possible that yes that did happen but no you can't call whatever is was "God" because it was not a sentient entity, just an energy source, but personally I'm alright with intelligent design, it fits and doesn't threaten science unless you from either side, force it to.

The idea of an afterlife is different. I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't believe in it, I do, weirdly I can't help it, but every rational thought in me says it doesn't make any sense. What makes humans so special? A good number of people feel guilty when they accidently kill a bug...that bug is no less completely dead than we will be at some point, so imagining for a moment there was an afterlife, what makes humans good enough, but not every ant, spider, bit of bacteria floating around? Is it awareness? In which case what about monkeys, dogs, do they not have souls?

But then if there's nothing, if brain death is end of, no soul, nothing, how did humans get to this point of awareness? Evolution I know, but why? What was the evolutionary purpose behind making us so aware of our own mortality we invented thousands of years worth of theological fiction, just to help get us through life?

I personally have never seen or felt anything even vaguely mystical, without a full set of details I neither believe nor disbelieve anyone else's accounts. I don't find accepting when someone else says they saw a ghost difficult, I think fine, maybe you did, maybe you just think you did, maybe you're lying, all possible, to me not a problem at all, I know it's not so easy for some, but I've just always been like that. The only thing I can think as any frm of conclusion on the idea of an afterlife, is that Shakespeare line, "there are more things in heaven and earth". Except I think we are a million miles away from understanidng any of them. If there is something it's complexity absolutely has to run far beyond well humans have a soul which lives without the body, there are just too many questions to that.

Inexistence bothers me too, but it's more permanent inexistence than just inexistence. If I knew there was even a faint possibility that billions of years in the future I'd become consciously aware again, I'd be fine with that. It's the idea of eternity. Eternity scares me when I think of it in living form, within an afterlife sort of notion, I just find the concept of just infinite time...or no time, I suppose, incredibly frightening.

I agree that if this is our one shot, we should be extra careful with it, but that's assuming every human is benevolently minded and we know that isn't true. The same reasoning could be applied to a total git who would think if this is our one shot better cause as much damage as possible. The soul-having view isn't perfect either, as if this isn't your one shot, you can always make ammends for your wrongs. Then again, if it takes a good run at this life to get you into the next...If only we as a race could decide on what "good" means we'd be fairing much better! There are arguments for the positive effect of both views, but they require you to already be a decent human being.
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Delilah » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:54 am

Belle Leisha wrote:It's a very, very strange topic. I struggle with this a little bit, because while religion and afterlife almost invariably go hand in hand, I'm not sure that God and an afterlife do. I don't doubt much there's intent behind existence, for me no rational analysis makes sense unless at some point, something defied the laws of physics as we know them now and caused ...well everything. It is entirely possible that yes that did happen but no you can't call whatever is was "God" because it was not a sentient entity, just an energy source, but personally I'm alright with intelligent design, it fits and doesn't threaten science unless you from either side, force it to.

The idea of an afterlife is different. I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't believe in it, I do, weirdly I can't help it, but every rational thought in me says it doesn't make any sense. What makes humans so special? A good number of people feel guilty when they accidently kill a bug...that bug is no less completely dead than we will be at some point, so imagining for a moment there was an afterlife, what makes humans good enough, but not every ant, spider, bit of bacteria floating around? Is it awareness? In which case what about monkeys, dogs, do they not have souls?

But then if there's nothing, if brain death is end of, no soul, nothing, how did humans get to this point of awareness? Evolution I know, but why? What was the evolutionary purpose behind making us so aware of our own mortality we invented thousands of years worth of theological fiction, just to help get us through life?

I personally have never seen or felt anything even vaguely mystical, without a full set of details I neither believe nor disbelieve anyone else's accounts. I don't find accepting when someone else says they saw a ghost difficult, I think fine, maybe you did, maybe you just think you did, maybe you're lying, all possible, to me not a problem at all, I know it's not so easy for some, but I've just always been like that. The only thing I can think as any frm of conclusion on the idea of an afterlife, is that Shakespeare line, "there are more things in heaven and earth". Except I think we are a million miles away from understanidng any of them. If there is something it's complexity absolutely has to run far beyond well humans have a soul which lives without the body, there are just too many questions to that.

Inexistence bothers me too, but it's more permanent inexistence than just inexistence. If I knew there was even a faint possibility that billions of years in the future I'd become consciously aware again, I'd be fine with that. It's the idea of eternity. Eternity scares me when I think of it in living form, within an afterlife sort of notion, I just find the concept of just infinite time...or no time, I suppose, incredibly frightening.

I agree that if this is our one shot, we should be extra careful with it, but that's assuming every human is benevolently minded and we know that isn't true. The same reasoning could be applied to a total git who would think if this is our one shot better cause as much damage as possible. The soul-having view isn't perfect either, as if this isn't your one shot, you can always make ammends for your wrongs. Then again, if it takes a good run at this life to get you into the next...If only we as a race could decide on what "good" means we'd be fairing much better! There are arguments for the positive effect of both views, but they require you to already be a decent human being.


I agree with a lot of what you said here. As for the evolution and purpose thing, I don't see any rational reason why there has to be a grand purpose at all. I can easily see the argument that our religious impulses are side-effects of having a combination of imagination and curiosity. Both of those things are helpful in making tools and finding solutions to problems. Those two things have clear evolutionary advantages.

I don't doubt that a majority of people who tell me that they've seen ghosts/angels/visions/aliens believe what they are telling me. And of course, I don't know for sure one way or another whether they actually did see these things. I don't believe it, though. I'd like to believe it, but I need evidence to make that leap.

It's funny, but my major guilt trip that forces me into vegetarianism is the idea that an animal has to give up it's one and only existence so that I can have a meal. A totally unnecessary meal too, as I can survive very well without meat of any kind. That's disturbing to me. It seems like such a waste of another being's life. I hate killing most insects for the same reason. That they cannot conceive of such philosophical ideas makes no difference to me.

Yeah, I agree too that if you aren't a decent human being, the concept of no afterlife might make you even more selfish and insensitive, trying to get all that you can out of this one life. With the concept of an afterlife, it usually comes out in selfishness and insensitivity with a religious packaging. So we're in agreement there. The only edge religion has is that it can teach good and decent people to be unkind to others (gays are an abomination, women are secondary to men, etc.) Of course, that's probably the result of unkind people coming up with these rules in the first place. We just can't outrun plain old human meanness and stupidity.

Permanent nonexistence....yeah, that's what bugs me too.
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:17 pm

Delilah wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you said here. As for the evolution and purpose thing, I don't see any rational reason why there has to be a grand purpose at all. I can easily see the argument that our religious impulses are side-effects of having a combination of imagination and curiosity. Both of those things are helpful in making tools and finding solutions to problems. Those two things have clear evolutionary advantages.

I don't doubt that a majority of people who tell me that they've seen ghosts/angels/visions/aliens believe what they are telling me. And of course, I don't know for sure one way or another whether they actually did see these things. I don't believe it, though. I'd like to believe it, but I need evidence to make that leap.

It's funny, but my major guilt trip that forces me into vegetarianism is the idea that an animal has to give up it's one and only existence so that I can have a meal. A totally unnecessary meal too, as I can survive very well without meat of any kind. That's disturbing to me. It seems like such a waste of another being's life. I hate killing most insects for the same reason. That they cannot conceive of such philosophical ideas makes no difference to me.

Yeah, I agree too that if you aren't a decent human being, the concept of no afterlife might make you even more selfish and insensitive, trying to get all that you can out of this one life. With the concept of an afterlife, it usually comes out in selfishness and insensitivity with a religious packaging. So we're in agreement there. The only edge religion has is that it can teach good and decent people to be unkind to others (gays are an abomination, women are secondary to men, etc.) Of course, that's probably the result of unkind people coming up with these rules in the first place. We just can't outrun plain old human meanness and stupidity.

Permanent nonexistence....yeah, that's what bugs me too.


That's true, I suppose the things we dream up while definitely making us a religious sort of race, also makes us the dominating race, but why hasn't the same leap been taken by other species? Why, is there one very obviously dominant species? What is it about evolution that put us so far ahead, in everything, cruelty, selfishness and bigotry included?

Well I believe normal people, they have less reasons to lie to you, televangelists, paid mystics, etc, I think are very cynically aware of the intentional lies they tell, as are some religious leaders! But I don't necessarily need evidence to believe someone, I need evidence to believe what they saw was mystical. If someone tells me they saw a ghost, I believe them , but don't necessarily believe they actually saw the imprint of a departed soul...if Harry Potter definition of the term "ghost" are accurate! :lol:

I just don't think humans have any right to use animals for something that can only possibly benefit humans, so farming on the whole is something I don't like.

Yes, occasionally good people have unpleasant views because of religion, or because of nasty people imposing them on religion at some point, but it could also be said that turning to religion has been know to cause formerly unkind people to reform. So in the end, I think it is just a human thing, be wouldn't be intrinsically better or worse with or without religion, our behaviour just might follow a different path.
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Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Delilah » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:11 am

God, we're boring without Ellie. How long is he going to be enhancing his brain anyway?
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:46 am

Delilah wrote:God, we're boring without Ellie. How long is he going to be enhancing his brain anyway?


That's true I really think his ego needed more feeding. :P

Till mid June I think, it is important though so probably fair enough.

I think there just being two of us just makes the thread harder to stay with, us just having a chat. :P It's because my debate topic of the moment is the election and that's probably no good to you. Having said that, you said something about being jealous of our choices? You have OBAMA! I want Obama! :lol:
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Delilah » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:00 am

Belle Leisha wrote:
Delilah wrote:God, we're boring without Ellie. How long is he going to be enhancing his brain anyway?


That's true I really think his ego needed more feeding. :P

Till mid June I think, it is important though so probably fair enough.

I think there just being two of us just makes the thread harder to stay with, us just having a chat. :P It's because my debate topic of the moment is the election and that's probably no good to you. Having said that, you said something about being jealous of our choices? You have OBAMA! I want Obama! :lol:


Good point. Obama made it a very exciting election year. We finally have a President who doesn't embarrass us when he travels overseas!
 
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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Belle Leisha » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:07 am

Yes, and more specifically, more exciting for the whole world! I'm pretty sure that much as I am loving Nick Clegg right now, between he, Cameron and Brown they're struggling to interest British voters, let alone anyone overseas.

I was talking to a Romanian friend yesterday and Obama cropped up, she said when they were getting towards their elections the then-Romanian President who did, as it goes get re-elected, planned a visit to the USA to meet Obama, but he said no, because he said in a couple of months time it will be someone else so he'd wait for them! :shock:

Rude. She did say their President is a moron though. She told me during the Iceland dust cloud thing, The president genuinely asked the transport minister why Planes couldn't fly through ash, when tanks in warzones can drive over it.
But Eden is burning, either brace yourself for elimination
Or else your hearts must have the courage, of the changing of the guard


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Re: Citrullus Lanatus II

Postby Delilah » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:41 am

Belle Leisha wrote:Yes, and more specifically, more exciting for the whole world! I'm pretty sure that much as I am loving Nick Clegg right now, between he, Cameron and Brown they're struggling to interest British voters, let alone anyone overseas.

I was talking to a Romanian friend yesterday and Obama cropped up, she said when they were getting towards their elections the then-Romanian President who did, as it goes get re-elected, planned a visit to the USA to meet Obama, but he said no, because he said in a couple of months time it will be someone else so he'd wait for them! :shock:

Rude. She did say their President is a moron though. She told me during the Iceland dust cloud thing, The president genuinely asked the transport minister why Planes couldn't fly through ash, when tanks in warzones can drive over it.

Nick Clegg is even getting attention here! Shocking. We're usually so self-centered that we don't notice elections in other countries. :P

Poor Romania...been there/done that with a stupid President. I have sympathy. I just hope that some dumbass white person doesn't shoot Obama. The right-wing keeps stoking all that hatred. I wonder do they realize what they're playing with? Get the rednecks all fired up, and there's no telling how far it will go.
 
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