Hillsborough

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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Two sharp pencils » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:48 pm

Elessar wrote:
Two sharp pencils wrote:Serious question......... Why is it that there are tributes paid to the 96 souls who lost their lives at Hillsbourgh & yet (it seems) nothing mentioned about the loss of life at Heysel which Liverpool were also involved at ?


I'm sure Juventus regularly mark the tragedy. When Juventus visited Anfield in 2005, the Kop held up a mosaic which read 'Amicizia'.



I think it's shameful that some people use the deaths of 39 Italians to score points against Liverpool fans. I wonder how the relatives of the Heysel victims would feel if they knew that to some, their loved ones were nothing more than inspiration for hateful taunts?



Well I'm not trying to score points or whatever against Liverpool fans (my wife is a Liverpool supporter for one) but surely one of the reasons that there was a loss of life at Heysel was because of the actions of some Liverpool supporters.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Elessar » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:06 pm

Two sharp pencils wrote:
Elessar wrote:
Two sharp pencils wrote:Serious question......... Why is it that there are tributes paid to the 96 souls who lost their lives at Hillsbourgh & yet (it seems) nothing mentioned about the loss of life at Heysel which Liverpool were also involved at ?


I'm sure Juventus regularly mark the tragedy. When Juventus visited Anfield in 2005, the Kop held up a mosaic which read 'Amicizia'.



I think it's shameful that some people use the deaths of 39 Italians to score points against Liverpool fans. I wonder how the relatives of the Heysel victims would feel if they knew that to some, their loved ones were nothing more than inspiration for hateful taunts?



Well I'm not trying to score points or whatever against Liverpool fans (my wife is a Liverpool supporter for one) but surely one of the reasons that there was a loss of life at Heysel was because of the actions of some Liverpool supporters.


I don't think there's ever been any pretence to the contrary. The Liverpool fans responsible were tried and imprisoned for manslaughter. There were serious issues with the stadium and crowd control as well, and they were dealt with swiftly and effectively. The stadium was entirely rebuilt (it's now called Charleloi). It's Juventus' tragedy though. Liverpool will never forget it and it is part of our history, but it's inevitably not as emotive a topic as Hillsborough.

96 people died from a population of around 500,000. That's 1 for every 5,000. My family is from just outside Liverpool and while I'm a Liverpool fan and currently live in Liverpool, I'm not a scouser; yet my dad knew someone who died there. Most Liverpool fans do. 2,977 people died on September 11th, in a population of 8 million. That's one for every 2,500. You can see where I'm going with this. As a city tragedy, Hillsborough was up there with 9/11.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Two sharp pencils » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:18 pm

I've always maintained that the Authorities were to blame for the Heysel disaster selling tickets to Juventus supporters for the Liverpool end & then having next to nothing regarding crowd segregation. If the Juve fans are not in that end then there can be no problems. I remember sadly watching both disasters unfold live on the TV & both were shocking......... Not trying to undermine your point about the loss of life for the city of Liverpool or being pedantic but some that lost their lives that day were from other places other than Liverpool. (two sisters if I remembered correctly were from Middlesex)
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Elessar » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:28 pm

Two sharp pencils wrote:I've always maintained that the Authorities were to blame for the Heysel disaster selling tickets to Juventus supporters for the Liverpool end & then having next to nothing regarding crowd segregation. If the Juve fans are not in that end then there can be no problems. I remember sadly watching both disasters unfold live on the TV & both were shocking......... Not trying to undermine your point about the loss of life for the city of Liverpool or being pedantic but some that lost their lives that day were from other places other than Liverpool. (two sisters if I remembered correctly were from Middlesex)


Yeah - Trevor Hicks' girls.

You're right about the segregation problems. The neutral tickets, bought by Belgians, were sold mostly to Italians, creating a dangerous area of intermingling. Juventus fans threw missiles at Liverpool fans, who responded by charging, Juventus fans retreated, and a wall collapsed. At least that's the summary version of events.

Incidentally I was in Athens in 2007 and while there were crowd control problems, Liverpool fans were rowdy, and there was DEFINITELY a lot of doubling-up with tickets (they had wide gates, not turnstiles, and the stewards were barely checking tickets), Liverpool and AC Milan fans were very close to each other and shared stadium facilities such as toilets. No trouble whatsoever. I think times have changed for the better.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Two sharp pencils » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:47 pm

Elessar wrote:
Two sharp pencils wrote:I've always maintained that the Authorities were to blame for the Heysel disaster selling tickets to Juventus supporters for the Liverpool end & then having next to nothing regarding crowd segregation. If the Juve fans are not in that end then there can be no problems. I remember sadly watching both disasters unfold live on the TV & both were shocking......... Not trying to undermine your point about the loss of life for the city of Liverpool or being pedantic but some that lost their lives that day were from other places other than Liverpool. (two sisters if I remembered correctly were from Middlesex)


Yeah - Trevor Hicks' girls.

You're right about the segregation problems. The neutral tickets, bought by Belgians, were sold mostly to Italians, creating a dangerous area of intermingling. Juventus fans threw missiles at Liverpool fans, who responded by charging, Juventus fans retreated, and a wall collapsed. At least that's the summary version of events.

Not sure if an English team travels to Rome. If I'm not wrong quite a few clubs have had nothing but trouble when playing either Roma or Lazio.

Incidentally I was in Athens in 2007 and while there were crowd control problems, Liverpool fans were rowdy, and there was DEFINITELY a lot of doubling-up with tickets (they had wide gates, not turnstiles, and the stewards were barely checking tickets), Liverpool and AC Milan fans were very close to each other and shared stadium facilities such as toilets. No trouble whatsoever. I think times have changed for the better.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby JLP » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:43 am

Serios question. Once the inquest has been sorted and proper closure is achieved for the families, do people think that there will be less publicity for Hillsborough and it will be remembered in a similar way to the Bradford fire which rarely gets a mention at all.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:05 am

JLP wrote:Serios question. Once the inquest has been sorted and proper closure is achieved for the families, do people think that there will be less publicity for Hillsborough and it will be remembered in a similar way to the Bradford fire which rarely gets a mention at all.


There'll be less media publicity as there won't be anything newsworthy any more, provided the outcome is the one the campaigners hope for, so yes, there'll be less publicity.

The memorials and tributes won't stop though. They'll be part of the club for the rest of its existence.

How the Bradford Fire is remembered is up to Bradford.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby JLP » Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:06 am

Elessar wrote:
JLP wrote:Serios question. Once the inquest has been sorted and proper closure is achieved for the families, do people think that there will be less publicity for Hillsborough and it will be remembered in a similar way to the Bradford fire which rarely gets a mention at all.


There'll be less media publicity as there won't be anything newsworthy any more, provided the outcome is the one the campaigners hope for, so yes, there'll be less publicity.

The memorials and tributes won't stop though. They'll be part of the club for the rest of its existence.

How the Bradford Fire is remembered is up to Bradford.


That is what I mean though. Hillsborough is still part of the national consensus wheras the Bradford fire is largely forgotten outside of Bradford. One of the campaigners summed it up before the tribute when she said no other city could have achieved what Liverpool has for the victims of the disaster.

BTW I am not for one second suggesting Hillsborough should ever be forgotten. I stood in absolute silence at Wembley the other week whilst others applauded. Why the silence was not observed is beyond comprehension.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:40 am

I googled Bradford Fire and this was the first hit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-27087132
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby JLP » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:03 pm

Elessar wrote:I googled Bradford Fire and this was the first hit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-27087132


My point though. Was that publicised on the national news? If it was I missed it. And that is about the only new story on Google since 2012. As I say, I am not trying to detract from the tragedy that was Hillsborough. Maybe it is still out there because of the sense of injustice that quite rightly still prevails.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:20 pm

JLP wrote:
Elessar wrote:I googled Bradford Fire and this was the first hit:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-27087132


My point though. Was that publicised on the national news? If it was I missed it. And that is about the only new story on Google since 2012. As I say, I am not trying to detract from the tragedy that was Hillsborough. Maybe it is still out there because of the sense of injustice that quite rightly still prevails.


Those two women who drowned were hardly in the news either. The news is what the people are talking about, more now than ever with the Internet there to keep track of things. I bet the Bradford Fire makes local news on a yearly basis.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Elessar » Sun May 11, 2014 12:03 pm

29th anniversary of the Bradford Fire today.

Twitter full of some very spiteful comments, which is sad:

http://twitter.com/search?q=%22RIP%20to ... 2&src=tren
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby JLP » Sun May 11, 2014 12:25 pm

Elessar wrote:29th anniversary of the Bradford Fire today.

Twitter full of some very spiteful comments, which is sad:

http://twitter.com/search?q=%22RIP%20to ... 2&src=tren


it is appalling that people can be so spiteful.
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby Cool Cat » Sun May 11, 2014 1:16 pm

Elessar wrote:29th anniversary of the Bradford Fire today.



And no minutes silence at any of the grounds :-( disgraceful, Football League and FA should hang their heads in shame.
 
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Re: Hillsborough

Postby JLP » Thu May 15, 2014 11:49 pm

Elessar wrote:29th anniversary of the Bradford Fire today.

Twitter full of some very spiteful comments, which is sad:

http://twitter.com/search?q=%22RIP%20to ... 2&src=tren


Nice to see fans from Arsenal and Hull coming together to remember those who died in the Bradford fire at the cup final.
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