Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Teo_torriate04 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:37 am

My good Sir Didymus, I'll not repeat your post due to it's length, but I do take your point. I would still posit that in many of the examples you list the 'message' is nuanced at best, or even unintenional, and the meaning applied retrospectively with the benefit of hindsight. I could even add another one that I don't think is on your list, The Time Monster (I had to look up the title of the episode),which could be interpreted as being kind to animals (the Minotaur).

I still maintain that the vainglorious grandstanding prevalent throughout this series is far too 'in yer face'. I loved the Doctor as a kid, Jon Pertwee being 'my' Doctor. I fell out of love during the Colin Baker/ Sylvester McCoy era but got re-enthused with the reboot (loved David Tennant's Doctor). I have no issue with a female Doc and really want to like her, and I will continue to watch because, well, you just have to don't you.
 
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Sir Didymus » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:35 pm

The beauty of Doctor Who deep down, is that if it's currently not your thing, wait a bit, and it soon will be again. ;)

Worked for me when Series 9 was farted out all half-arsed... :D
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Elessar » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:27 am

I’ve never particularly stopped enjoying Doctor Who, although I’ve perhaps been a bit less enthusiastic about it over the last few years.

I have to say though - and I say this as an alleged leftie virtue-signalling SJW - the show does often awkwardly force in references to just how progressive it thinks it is. Perfect example was in the New Year episode, when a random disposable character says “Most secure digits in Yorkshire - at least that’s what my boyfriend says”. The boyfriend has no role in the storyline, he’s mentioned simply to point out that the character is gay. Not only is it pointless but it also felt clunky and unrealistic. Bill being gay was done well, and it became an important plot point. Having every third character referring to their same-sex partner is just gratuitous.

But never mind. It doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the show. But I think criticisms along those lines are often justified.
 
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Sir Didymus » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:05 pm

Elessar wrote:I’ve never particularly stopped enjoying Doctor Who, although I’ve perhaps been a bit less enthusiastic about it over the last few years.

I have to say though - and I say this as an alleged leftie virtue-signalling SJW - the show does often awkwardly force in references to just how progressive it thinks it is. Perfect example was in the New Year episode, when a random disposable character says “Most secure digits in Yorkshire - at least that’s what my boyfriend says”. The boyfriend has no role in the storyline, he’s mentioned simply to point out that the character is gay. Not only is it pointless but it also felt clunky and unrealistic. Bill being gay was done well, and it became an important plot point. Having every third character referring to their same-sex partner is just gratuitous.

But never mind. It doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the show. But I think criticisms along those lines are often justified.


If that character had said "at least that's what my girlfriend says", everyone kicking up a fuss about it would say it was a fun, throwaway line, or perhaps go the other way and say it was too rude a joke for alluding to fingering.

Having every LGBT+ character have their sexuality as the defining point of their character isn't helpful. Some of them, yes... but can we just have some normality, and not make queer characters all about their queerness?
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Elessar » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:55 pm

Sir Didymus wrote:
Elessar wrote:I’ve never particularly stopped enjoying Doctor Who, although I’ve perhaps been a bit less enthusiastic about it over the last few years.

I have to say though - and I say this as an alleged leftie virtue-signalling SJW - the show does often awkwardly force in references to just how progressive it thinks it is. Perfect example was in the New Year episode, when a random disposable character says “Most secure digits in Yorkshire - at least that’s what my boyfriend says”. The boyfriend has no role in the storyline, he’s mentioned simply to point out that the character is gay. Not only is it pointless but it also felt clunky and unrealistic. Bill being gay was done well, and it became an important plot point. Having every third character referring to their same-sex partner is just gratuitous.

But never mind. It doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the show. But I think criticisms along those lines are often justified.


If that character had said "at least that's what my girlfriend says", everyone kicking up a fuss about it would say it was a fun, throwaway line, or perhaps go the other way and say it was too rude a joke for alluding to fingering.

Having every LGBT+ character have their sexuality as the defining point of their character isn't helpful. Some of them, yes... but can we just have some normality, and not make queer characters all about their queerness?


I don’t think they’d have bothered with the line if he was intended to be straight. It was an awkward line literally designed to make him gay. It was also a pretty rubbish joke I thought.

I guess the problem with sexuality is that unless it’s a plot point, it’s hard to represent it without lines to signal it, because it isn’t visible in the way that a skin colour or a disability might be (speaking of which, why not have an occaisonal wheelchair-bound character instead of trying to convince us that someone is dyspraxic? Maybe there’ve been wheelchair-bound characters before that I’ve forgotten. Only one I can think of it Davros, and they likened him to Stephen Hawking which could have been a bit offensive if it wasn’t pretty clear that Hawking himself was almost certainly watching and finding it amusing!).
 
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Sir Didymus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:28 am

Elessar wrote:I guess the problem with sexuality is that unless it’s a plot point, it’s hard to represent it without lines to signal it, because it isn’t visible in the way that a skin colour or a disability might be (speaking of which, why not have an occaisonal wheelchair-bound character instead of trying to convince us that someone is dyspraxic? Maybe there’ve been wheelchair-bound characters before that I’ve forgotten. Only one I can think of it Davros, and they likened him to Stephen Hawking which could have been a bit offensive if it wasn’t pretty clear that Hawking himself was almost certainly watching and finding it amusing!).


Thats definitely an area most TV needs to catch up to theatre with. There's a great actress called Rachel Denning who had a role in Series 10 and is of restricted height, and they just let her play a scientist with no reference to her size. That's how to do it. I saw her in a production of Cosmic Scallies shortly afterwards and kept thinking if she was tall she'd be a superstar already....
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Montavilla » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:35 pm

Elessar wrote:I’ve never particularly stopped enjoying Doctor Who, although I’ve perhaps been a bit less enthusiastic about it over the last few years.

I have to say though - and I say this as an alleged leftie virtue-signalling SJW - the show does often awkwardly force in references to just how progressive it thinks it is. Perfect example was in the New Year episode, when a random disposable character says “Most secure digits in Yorkshire - at least that’s what my boyfriend says”. The boyfriend has no role in the storyline, he’s mentioned simply to point out that the character is gay. Not only is it pointless but it also felt clunky and unrealistic. Bill being gay was done well, and it became an important plot point. Having every third character referring to their same-sex partner is just gratuitous.

But never mind. It doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the show. But I think criticisms along those lines are often justified.


I guess I'm used enough to gay characters on TV (and in life) that the line didn't even register to me as anything but a quick joke. What it did for me was make it sad that the guy died a couple seconds later, because he had a boyfriend who was going to miss him.

Which makes me think of the guy in "Kerblam!" who talks about his kid before getting killed. Or the guy in "The Woman Who Fell to Earth" who dies after talking to his grandchild. It always makes me just that little bit sadder about the deaths. Maybe that's intentional? It's like Chibnal wants us to give a crap about the people who exist on the show just to die. But in no case is it essential to plot to point out these relationships. In only case it is even known to the Doctor or companions that the dead person had any relationships at all.
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Re: Doctor Who // Torchwood // The Sarah Jane Adventures

Postby Sir Didymus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:48 pm

Montavilla wrote:
Elessar wrote:I’ve never particularly stopped enjoying Doctor Who, although I’ve perhaps been a bit less enthusiastic about it over the last few years.

I have to say though - and I say this as an alleged leftie virtue-signalling SJW - the show does often awkwardly force in references to just how progressive it thinks it is. Perfect example was in the New Year episode, when a random disposable character says “Most secure digits in Yorkshire - at least that’s what my boyfriend says”. The boyfriend has no role in the storyline, he’s mentioned simply to point out that the character is gay. Not only is it pointless but it also felt clunky and unrealistic. Bill being gay was done well, and it became an important plot point. Having every third character referring to their same-sex partner is just gratuitous.

But never mind. It doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the show. But I think criticisms along those lines are often justified.


I guess I'm used enough to gay characters on TV (and in life) that the line didn't even register to me as anything but a quick joke. What it did for me was make it sad that the guy died a couple seconds later, because he had a boyfriend who was going to miss him.

Which makes me think of the guy in "Kerblam!" who talks about his kid before getting killed. Or the guy in "The Woman Who Fell to Earth" who dies after talking to his grandchild. It always makes me just that little bit sadder about the deaths. Maybe that's intentional? It's like Chibnal wants us to give a crap about the people who exist on the show just to die. But in no case is it essential to plot to point out these relationships. In only case it is even known to the Doctor or companions that the dead person had any relationships at all.


Exactly. And the interesting thing there is that nobody batted an eyelid about the other deaths, and the glimpses of 'family life' we saw of them... it was just because this one was a gay character that it was apparently "too-PC". :shock:

Part of the wonderful notion of normalising queer characters is to have normal thing happen to them. And in Doctor Who's case, that's sometimes going to be snuffing it horrendously as soon as we meet you.
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